proper cartridge alignment

[edgecom]

So I read all the instructions that came with my shure m44-7 cartridges, and I think I have it right. I have technic 1210 m5g (that have the curved tone arm) and it says that you should have the cartridge angled @ 23degrees give or take, and the cartridge should be a marker in a straight line from the tip of the head shell all the way to the top screw on the "clamp" or swivel base piece that holds the entire mechanical arm together. see photos attached.

if im rambling and making no sense, maybe someone can just talk to me about how theirs is set up. see images for what im talking about

[edgecom]

follow up. i had a buddy over who has had tables a bit longer, (so im assumming has a bit more knowledge) and we read the instructions and thats what we gathered from it. it said have @ 23 degree angle. unless that is for a non DJ set up?

i havent seen many vinyl set ups in my day to notice, so now im skeptical. im hoping for someone to come in with real knowledge.

my issue arose when the needle would keep skipping backwards playing 45s, when they would get towards the blank space wall when the record was about to finish up. so we started to troubleshoot my settings, and then re-read the instructions and saw that.

[staticcast]

uh, that is some CRAZY angle shit you got going on there. The cartridge should be more or less straight on the headshell. The idea is that when seen from above, the needle should be parallel with the tangent of the groove. An S-shaped tone arm allows this for most positions on the record, whereas a straight tonearm doesn't.

I think they mean 23 degrees from HORIZONTAL, ie seen from the side.

EDIT: just read the manual in question. That's a pretty unusual setup; for normal playback you want the needle tangential to the groove. With the cartridge angled there'll be a big tradeoff in distortion (and possibly record wear) for the sake of better tracking when scratching.

[edgecom]

its only been 2 days with this crazy angle so thankfully i came here second.

the instructions definitely had me and my friend both fooled.

thank you. BIG thank you

[edgecom]

what about my bit regarding the back skipping on the 45s?

any idea which mechanical setting needs to be tweaked?

[staticcast]

what about my bit regarding the back skipping on the 45s?

any idea which mechanical setting needs to be tweaked?

Antiskate to zero, more counterweight. (NB. For normal playback it's better to set the antiskate to the same as your tonearm weight, but that can cause skipping when playing backwards.)

Basically, angling the cartridge the way you had it is effectively the same thing as having a straight tonearm; it's not massively bad or anything, just more for scratch DJs than normal playback.

EDIT: wait, did you mean that the needle would skip when back-cueing (pulling the record back), or the needle would skip backwards when playing the record forwards?

[edgecom]

the needle would skip backwards when playing forwards. only seemed to effect 45s.


@ 7:20 in this mix http://soundcloud.com/cloypi/samples you hear it.

[staticcast]

the needle would skip backwards when playing forwards. only seemed to effect 45s.


@ 7:20 in this mix http://soundcloud.com/cloypi/samples you hear it.

Oh right, I see. Well, antiskate exerts an *outwards* force on the needle to counteract the inwards force you get on a curved tonearm. So if the needle was skipping backwards, it could be too *much* antiskate.

That's unlikely to be the real problem though. What weight are you using? Can you post a pic of the alignment of the needle (the way you had it before, when it was skipping) when it's getting towards the inside of the record (ideally from the top, the front and the side)?

[edgecom]

i will when i get home. thanks so much for you help

[edgecom]

i readjusted my catridges they are straight and normal now.

i retested my problematic 45 on my right turn table first. the settings are 4.5mm (heigh adjustment) 0 (anti-skate) and the weight of the counterbalance is on 3.5 - 4. it did not skip 1x.

move to my left turntable with the same exact settings it skips. i switch head shells to make sure its not the stylus and it skips on both, so i know its the mechanical settings.

i moved the weight up to 5 and it wont skip. 3.5 does, 4.5 does, 5 wont. so im completely out of ideas on what i need to adjust. (correction tried it a second time and it skipped @ 5)

this sounds foolish but the only physical difference i can see between the two tables, is the cushion feet on the one that doest skip has more give then the one that skips. (but i think thats me over analyzing a scenario that i dont know enough about)

i am going to keep troubleshooting with different 45s see if the issue continues across the board. (maybe its the 45, nearly brand new but maybe)

http://s457.photobucket.com/albums/qq29 ... G_0365.jpg
http://s457.photobucket.com/albums/qq29 ... G_0368.jpg
http://s457.photobucket.com/albums/qq29 ... G_0366.jpg
http://s457.photobucket.com/albums/qq29 ... G_0369.jpg

[deadly_habit]

http://www.mixingonbeat.com/phpbb/templ ... age=53#2.0

[staticcast]

i readjusted my catridges they are straight and normal now.

i retested my problematic 45 on my right turn table first. the settings are 4.5mm (heigh adjustment) 0 (anti-skate) and the weight of the counterbalance is on 3.5 - 4. it did not skip 1x.

move to my left turntable with the same exact settings it skips. i switch head shells to make sure its not the stylus and it skips on both, so i know its the mechanical settings.

i moved the weight up to 5 and it wont skip. 3.5 does, 4.5 does, 5 wont. so im completely out of ideas on what i need to adjust. (correction tried it a second time and it skipped @ 5)

this sounds foolish but the only physical difference i can see between the two tables, is the cushion feet on the one that doest skip has more give then the one that skips. (but i think thats me over analyzing a scenario that i dont know enough about)

i am going to keep troubleshooting with different 45s see if the issue continues across the board. (maybe its the 45, nearly brand new but maybe)

http://s457.photobucket.com/albums/qq29 ... G_0365.jpg
http://s457.photobucket.com/albums/qq29 ... G_0368.jpg
http://s457.photobucket.com/albums/qq29 ... G_0366.jpg
http://s457.photobucket.com/albums/qq29 ... G_0369.jpg

The settings sound ok - you shouldn't need 5g to avoid skipping in normal playback - but the actual alignment of the cartridge is more important. Could you post pics of the cartridge from dead centre in front of it, directly above it and directly from the side?

Is the turntable new and in good condition? Could be a dodgy tone arm if it's ever been dropped/banged/otherwise damaged.

[edgecom]

i will take photos and post in a minute, but with these stanton they come with weights, you can see the 2G in the last photos, there is also a 4G weight. i have no tried this but would that be a possible fix? i feel like that would only mask the issue if it i did prevent skipping. headshells

[edgecom]

i bought the tables form guitar center, used. i know the guy who sold them to me and he did some re wiring of the ground, and replaced some circuit board inside and tested them for me. i feel they are ok. but it seems because both headshells create the same issue, and its only on 45s, that something has to be wrong with the unit. i am trying to recreate the issues on multiple 45s instead of the same 2, im doing that right now.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq29 ... G_0378.jpg


** i have a batch of 20+ 45s' i am going to play each one today, see how many times the skipping occurs. if it doesnt recreate itself, this entire time it could have been 2 bad 45s. (which sucks cause 1 is my SBTRKT tiny tempah REMIX!)


secondly i hear the POP, mark, skipping spot, on this sbtrkt 45, that is causing it to skip on the table with issues. though there is less weight on the counter balance here, so again, im puzzled.

[CBK81]

Are you setting them up for scratching or mixing?

[edgecom]

mixing. the start of issue was because i had them set up for scratching and didnt know i did. (they were angled) now they are back to how the should be straight you can see in the image above.

[edgecom]

i disregarded this the whole time, could these dings be the whole issue?

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq29 ... G_0380.jpg
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq29 ... G_0379.jpg

[staticcast]

i will take photos and post in a minute, but with these stanton they come with weights, you can see the 2G in the last photos, there is also a 4G weight. i have no tried this but would that be a possible fix? i feel like that would only mask the issue if it i did prevent skipping. headshells

As long as you reset the dial to zero when the arm balances perfectly, there should be no difference.

i disregarded this the whole time, could these dings be the whole issue?

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq29 ... G_0380.jpg
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq29 ... G_0379.jpg

Possibly. They could be an indication that damage has occurred to the tonearm in the past.

i bought the tables form guitar center, used. i know the guy who sold them to me and he did some re wiring of the ground, and replaced some circuit board inside and tested them for me. i feel they are ok. but it seems because both headshells create the same issue, and its only on 45s, that something has to be wrong with the unit. i am trying to recreate the issues on multiple 45s instead of the same 2, im doing that right now.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq29 ... G_0378.jpg

I can't see very clearly from this photo and you didn't post any photos from the side and top (with the needle on a record), but is the headshell horizontal here? It looks like it could be twisted a little counterclockwise. That could definitely cause tracking problems. If it is, try gently twisting the tonearm; often they come a little loose on 1210s.

[yummy]

Are you setting them up for scratching or mixing?

sorry for the thread hijack, but i'm a bit new to djing and was wondering a bit about this: do you have to set up your tables for one or the other, or is it possible to have your decks set up for both mixing and scratching? i'd definetly like to do both, if it's possible. i'm pretty sure that it just comes down to certain needles being better for certain tasks.....could someone fill me in a bit?

[CBK81]

Are you setting them up for scratching or mixing?

sorry for the thread hijack, but i'm a bit new to djing and was wondering a bit about this: do you have to set up your tables for one or the other, or is it possible to have your decks set up for both mixing and scratching? i'd definetly like to do both, if it's possible. i'm pretty sure that it just comes down to certain needles being better for certain tasks.....could someone fill me in a bit?

The optimal set up of the carts for scratching is to angle them so that it eliminates the s shape of the tone arm. This will GREATLY reduce skipping, but will do so at the cost of increased cue burn.