'Old-school' sound?

[felixWBO]

Hi y'all, my name's Felix, I'm new to the dubstep-production game, so be nice! (I know you're a lovely lot really...)

Might be strange being asked for production tips that don't involve emulating Skrillex, Borgore, Datsik or Flux Pavillion, but I've been listening to a lot of earlier, mostly UK dubstep (Hatcha, Youngsta, DMZ etc.) and really love the way they get their tracks are forceful without being all in-your-face. I especially like the bass sounds, which are much more subtle than contemporary dubstep, but still sound awesome. This is not a "Which gear do I need to buy to sound like Coki?" thread, I'm not interested in, nor would be capable of emulating these dudes. But I do think the approach to production that these guys used must be very different to people like Skrillex etc, and all the tutorials on the web seem to be geared towards this kind of maximum-brutality sound.
So I'm basically wondering if anyone can offer some useful pointers on what the main stylistic difference of the older-school stuff I've listed? I know these guys all collaborated and stuff, and you can tell the early-greats were coming from the same place, so I hope you know what I mean by that 'old-school' sound?

Just to reiterate, I am not asking "How can I sound like..." but rather "Can someone who is more knowledgable than me (probs everyone on this board!) explain to me the main technical/stylistic/aesthetic approaches used?"

Cheers!

[-[2]DAY_-]

dis is the sound i'm after as well, i feel like its wat drew me in and all that
But i feel like it's a sound based more on experimenting and layering to get those subtle, yet dirty bass bin sounds rather than laying down some FM envelope drilling screech over a sub and calling it filth

I think the biggest thing is the drums. Don't sit things on top of a lousy bro kick bro snare with a ride on the upbeat. Get some breaks, chop/pitch em, re-amp them... then lay your drums over that, syncopate them. Maybe even avoid the rinsed halftime back beat.

As for the bass sounds, i dunno, im as lost as anyone, but I think i hear mostly sines and triangles and squares as the basis of a lot of great sounds.

[hasezwei]

great question!
my thoughts:
1. intricate percussion. don't have your snare or kick punch you in the face, pay a lot of attention to hihats and other percussion, kinda have them dance around the beat. having stuff not perfectly quantised helps, but don't overdo it unless you're aiming for that wonky or burial style sound (which i assume you don't).

2. for synths and samples, it's about rhythm and atmosphere. there's no need for sound-design fetishism like in current dubstep and most drum n bass for example, your music is for dancers, not giving producers a nerd-boner. of course it's not forbidden to do mindblowing synth-trickery, but it comes second to the most important part: setting a mood and accompanying the rhythm.

3. basslines, as you said, should be low and not take the spotlight but instead add pressure to the track. and again, keep it rhythmical. many basslines in old dubstep were pure sinewave-sub, but in rhythmical bursts comparable to the 808-kicks used in jungle. a lot of newer dubstep has long bass notes that go for a whole bar, like a melodic pad or something, don't do that. it's not funky, it doesn't make people dance. the silence between bass-notes is what makes it hit so hard.

for arrangement, switch up the rhythm sometimes to keep stuff from being boring, you can use any suitable element to do that, even minor changes like shifting a percussion sound forward a 16th can create entirely new patterns to dance to.


some examples of what i mean:

[-[2]DAY_-]

i just wanna commend you ^ for pointing out the bar-long sustained bass notes are NOT funky. Hit the nail on the head for me as i'll be at the club and caspa drops all these tunes in a row drop to drop with all these sustained bass notes playing a melody... its not bad music (not all of it), but it's not danceable in the slightest. It doesn't have to be a wobble but the churning bass presence is what makes the track proper gully.

Having it relentlessly hit you with whole notes at a constant amplitude, really takes the power out of sub and bass imo

[-[2]DAY_-]

also really good other tips and 2 great tunes^^ :]

If u look at for instance girl unit stuff, the synths are mad simple, not that loud, but great

[safeandsound]

Wow.. I saw "oldskool" and thought 8bit AKAI S900's and pads sampled at C3 and layered across the entire keyboard, lol.
I guess thats very old skool.

http://whatisaudiomastering.com/

[felixWBO]

The production on that DMZ tune is amazing...Great advice, certainly given me some things to consider. Gracias!

[mta7388]

welcome felix, welcome. i don't have much constructive advice but it's just nice to see someone new who wants to go for that sound amongst all the others asking for filth, etc

[alphacat]

1) Don't over-compress or over-limit everything to the tits.
2) Give yourself a lot of headroom, esp. on the drum mix.
3) Less is more: keep it simple. Periodically go back and listen for elements that don't need to be there or are competing w/ each other for attention.

[Brisance]

Also, controlled degradation, such as tape saturation.

[Dystinkt]

Old school dubsteps got more swing and rhythm to it, its more about how the bass and drum groove compliment each other, rather than somebody slapping a brutal electro/yoyoy bass over a kick and snare.

[Basic A]

Drums : Sparse, lotta ethnic percs and ect., woody reverby snappy sounds n all that... snappy/cracky snares... Make em have an evil halftimey shuffley feel, saturate them as individuals then saturate them as a bus.

Bass : Start simple wavewforms, add lots of wet/dry distortions, like old school cabinet emulators and analog pedal emulators and all that... split freq's, reverb on the upper portions of your bass sounds to gel with drums.

Melodics : Mangled vocals, reversed guitar/piano/rhodes/we... pile on the saturation, use tons of tape delay, let things swell in the listeners persption and climax and fade away and ect... Eerie synths with alot of saturation...



Be more specific youll get more specific answers

[slothrop]

I think the less-is-more thing is very important. With a lot of that stuff there's a kind of confidence that it takes to run with just a raw beat and a deep sub and the occasional whooshy noise and make them work together well enough that you don't feel the need to crowd it out with loads of extra percussion layers and swirly pads and keys and stuff to make it interesting. I'm nowhere near there yet, though.

[alphacat]

^ Yep.

Case in point:

[upstateface]

Wow.. I saw "oldskool" and thought 8bit AKAI S900's and pads sampled at C3 and layered across the entire keyboard, lol.
I guess thats very old skool.

s900's are 12bit

[Skang]

Hood on eyes low.

Like the above have said..space, atmosphere, groove are all important. Subtle changes can affect your song greatly. I notice the snares are *usually* snappy but still retains a punch to it, doesn't mean it can't sound good if it's not though!

Just listen to tunes and take notes, I'm sure back in the day they all did some weird shit to get their sounds (would love some kind of Kromestar masterclass heheheh)

By the way have you seen that documentary 'Bassweight' bruv? It's quite good and relates to this kind of sound you're seeking

[rachtiiibam]

This video: "Rusku Production Masterclass"
http://vimeo.com/3595144

might be of interest?

[Genevieve]

Pretend being a 2-step producer making jungle at 140 bpm! A lot of the sound design from these 2003/2004 productions is based on jungle.

[Debaser1]

This is my area and where I'm aiming the majority of my tunes, so I'm loving this.

Caspa said in an interview that he makes pretty much all of his bass sounds in a subtractor in reason, and its always a sine, square, saw or triangle wave. As soon as I found that out then the world was my oyster really, and all I can say in that area is keep on experimenting and fiddling with freq's and waves and mod's.
Also, as I've always believed, an EQ is your friend. When I got Caspa's signature squeaky clean square wobble very close, there was still something missing. But a trick I learnt from a FuntCase tutorial funnily enough is EQ peaking. Obviously, take the low end out below 150hz to leave room for your sub, but get a little sharp peak on your EQ, and move it along the frequency range slowly until you find the point where your bass sound is at it's most thick and almost kinda clipping. Once you've found that, play around with the gain and Q control and you'll get those little basses sounding a lot fuller. Also, reverb on basses is a delight I've found.

I can't really offer anymore unique tips of my own, cus they're all covered in other posts above really. I'f I think of anymore then I'll drop by.

Looking forward to hearing some people's techniques though!

[felixWBO]

Drums : Sparse, lotta ethnic percs and ect., woody reverby snappy sounds n all that... snappy/cracky snares... Make em have an evil halftimey shuffley feel, saturate them as individuals then saturate them as a bus.

Bass : Start simple wavewforms, add lots of wet/dry distortions, like old school cabinet emulators and analog pedal emulators and all that... split freq's, reverb on the upper portions of your bass sounds to gel with drums.

Melodics : Mangled vocals, reversed guitar/piano/rhodes/we... pile on the saturation, use tons of tape delay, let things swell in the listeners persption and climax and fade away and ect... Eerie synths with alot of saturation...



Be more specific youll get more specific answers

No no, this is exactly the kind of advice I'm looking for. I know the sound but have no idea how it translates into production terms; more technical stuff would probably go straight over my head, so general is definitely better for me at this stage Having said that, I am curious to know how an 'evil, haltimey, shuffley feel' could be achieved. Quantize to swing I'm guessing for the shuffle? But half-time? (I'm really embarassed to say but I don't know how to make a halftime beat!) As for evilness, I imagine that can't be done 'box-ticker' style and is just the kinda thing you have to experiment to find? (although if you have any advice on that one, feel free to share!)

Thanks so much for the advice guys, amazing response and so many useful suggestions, without even putting them into practice yet I feel like I'm understanding a lot better already. Will have to re-read this thread in this thread tomorra to absorb it all lol