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I had a little read about this keymixing stuff after someone commented that some of the mixes were out of tune, and I had no idea what they were talking about. This is almost certainly down to the fact I am about as musical as a broken chair and wouldn't know a middle C if it beat me up and stole my wallet.

Not sure I fully get it though, so correct me if I'm getting any of these points wrong:
1. Intentionally or not, almost every song is written in a certain key.
2. Keys sound good played with themselves and a few other keys, and clash horribly with others.
3. If you work out the keys of your tunes and then mix the ones that work together it'll sound wicked.

Is that the basic idea, yeah?
If so, here's what I don't get. If Tune X is written in C at 138bpm, and tune Y is also in C but at 141bpm, then surely pitching up tune X is going to change the key and it'll sound horrible. Almost every tune need to be adjusted a bit, so nothing will be in a proper key, it's all going to be all over the place.
So is key mixing just for CD decks where the pitch doesn't change with the bpm? Or can you do it with vinyl?

If it's CDs only I've lost all interest, but if someone wants to correct my thoughts above, then feel free to also go ahead and tell me how the hell you work out what key a tune is in.

Also, does this only applies to tunes with melody on the go, or do you key match basslines as well?

Let's all get John Digweed on this.

pitch up a tune a few notches won't make a huge amount of difference, but it does a little I guess..

it's just about experimenting and using your ear innit you can do that without any technical knowledge or theory. 'music is a feeling' ra ra ra

Yeah I guess the most important question is actually:
Will all this messing about actually sound any better than just listening to the mix and going "that sounds shit, better try another record"?

chances are if it sounds good to the ear.then its in key...

i wouldnt get too muddled up in the idea to be honest

4linehaiku wrote:Not sure I fully get it though, so correct me if I'm getting any of these points wrong:
1. Intentionally or not, almost every song is written in a certain key.
2. Keys sound good played with themselves and a few other keys, and clash horribly with others.
3. If you work out the keys of your tunes and then mix the ones that work together it'll sound wicked.

yes, totally correct.

4linehaiku wrote:If so, here's what I don't get. If Tune X is written in C at 138bpm, and tune Y is also in C but at 141bpm, then surely pitching up tune X is going to change the key and it'll sound horrible. Almost every tune need to be adjusted a bit, so nothing will be in a proper key, it's all going to be all over the place.
So is key mixing just for CD decks where the pitch doesn't change with the bpm? Or can you do it with vinyl?

nah, slightly wrong there. To choose arbitrary examples (this won't be at all correct), let's say if you have 2 tunes, one in E at 140 and one in C at 137, you might find that the keys complement each other when you adjust the pitch to make them play at the same speed. You can actually buy wallcharts to tell you what keys will work at what bpms etc but most people just do this by ear - play with your tunes in different combinations until you find some nice combos.

For example, if you have these tunes, try:

Da Wrath VIP (mala) >> Bleep (elemental)

or Prophecy (cyrus on tectonic) >> Identify (D1 on tempa)

just a coupla of key mixes off the top of my head I've happened across in the past. I'll let you have those ones for free.

talk to vaccine. she's the keymix queen.

I find this chart really helps - http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/overview/easymix.mv

Each key has a code and know that you can generally go up or down 1 number and it wil sound good [following the circle of fifths, but you don't need to know that], you can also do keychanges by say going up/down 7 for one semitone or 2 for 2 semitones. Relative major/minor keys have the same number.

Er, hope that helps You dont really need to understand the theory to make it work. Also as said above it's fine to do it by ear if you can.

I usually figure out the key of a tune when I first get it. I write 'em all down in a text file. It's a good reference to use when putting together mixes. In the end you just have to use your ear. Sometimes tunes that are out of key actually do work together. I don't believe in using any harmonic mixing chart or whatever. Keys don't relate the same way chords and single notes do. If you don't have a good ear a chart won't do you any good anyway.

IMHO you don't need to know music theory if you've got the ear for it. (Though it helps.)

If you have doubts about whether a mix is in key, hum the root note of each track seperately when they're at the same bpm. If they're the same or they harmonize, the tracks will probably sound good together.

Probably.

Hip-hop mixing and beat making has always been about dissonance and layering and, in effect, a rejection of Western classical (or even jazz and funk) harmony. Just listen to the bomb squad or Wu-tang's early stuff. Nothing is 'in tune'.

Although it does sound amazing when you hit on a key mix, you can get some equally effective blends using keys that are really jarring when juxtaposed. I still reckon it's a good idea to look at what keys you're working in, no harm in understanding something better, but don't let it constrict your possibilities, you might miss out on some potentially mind-blowing sounds.

like, for example, if you had two tunes that were a semi-tone apart, (one in C and one in C sharp (for fack's sake my laptop doesn't have a hash key; waste) the two records should sound really muddy and clashing if you put them together. But if you used the eq and volume to emphasize one in one bar followed by the other in the next you could potentially get a tense cyclical sound that could be very effective in a set.

thomas e. griffin wrote:Hip-hop mixing and beat making has always been about dissonance and layering and, in effect, a rejection of Western classical (or even jazz and funk) harmony. Just listen to the bomb squad or Wu-tang's early stuff. Nothing is 'in tune'.

Although it does sound amazing when you hit on a key mix, you can get some equally effective blends using keys that are really jarring when juxtaposed. I still reckon it's a good idea to look at what keys you're working in, no harm in understanding something better, but don't let it constrict your possibilities, you might miss out on some potentially mind-blowing sounds.

This may sound a bit harsh, but is you're not musical you really shouldn't dj. Unless of course you can get a job in an American prison camp spinning records as a means of torture (I heard they do that a lot).

inspector wrote:This may sound a bit harsh, but is you're not musical you really shouldn't dj. Unless of course you can get a job in an American prison camp spinning records as a means of torture (I heard they do that a lot).

Whether you want to be a DJ or not, it doesn't depend on whether you are musically minded, if you want to spin records, go for it. It shouldn't be about whether you understand harmonics or not, thats not the point, IMO.

LEQ wrote:

inspector wrote:This may sound a bit harsh, but is you're not musical you really shouldn't dj. Unless of course you can get a job in an American prison camp spinning records as a means of torture (I heard they do that a lot).

Whether you want to be a DJ or not, it doesn't depend on whether you are musically minded, if you want to spin records, go for it. It shouldn't be about whether you understand harmonics or not, thats not the point, IMO.

Mate, that's exactly the attitude that makes Idol such a cool program to watch.

...

You mean theyve invented more than just BEAT matching now?!!

Mother fuck...

inspector wrote:

LEQ wrote:

inspector wrote:This may sound a bit harsh, but is you're not musical you really shouldn't dj. Unless of course you can get a job in an American prison camp spinning records as a means of torture (I heard they do that a lot).

Whether you want to be a DJ or not, it doesn't depend on whether you are musically minded, if you want to spin records, go for it. It shouldn't be about whether you understand harmonics or not, thats not the point, IMO.

Mate, that's exactly the attitude that makes Idol such a cool program to watch.

Well, from what I can gather from your post's, you attitude is the one that promotes intense chin stroking at the back of the room at a night, providing a much annoying running commentary on the technicalities of the DJ who's playing, trying to deconstruct each and every mix that he/she does. But hey, whatever floats your boat. John Peel was the one of the greatest DJ's I've had the pleasure of listening too, yet he couldn't mix for shit, would that have made him any less of a DJ in your point of view?

I'm more on the "start-stop-2 second pause when the 15€ cd-player starts up, running the fader around during the ambient parts"-side of the fence on this issue.

LEQ wrote:

inspector wrote:

LEQ wrote:

inspector wrote:This may sound a bit harsh, but is you're not musical you really shouldn't dj. Unless of course you can get a job in an American prison camp spinning records as a means of torture (I heard they do that a lot).

Whether you want to be a DJ or not, it doesn't depend on whether you are musically minded, if you want to spin records, go for it. It shouldn't be about whether you understand harmonics or not, thats not the point, IMO.

Mate, that's exactly the attitude that makes Idol such a cool program to watch.

Well, from what I can gather from your post's, you attitude is the one that promotes intense chin stroking at the back of the room at a night, providing a much annoying running commentary on the technicalities of the DJ who's playing, trying to deconstruct each and every mix that he/she does. But hey, whatever floats your boat. John Peel was the one of the greatest DJ's I've had the pleasure of listening too, yet he couldn't mix for shit, would that have made him any less of a DJ in your point of view?

You couldn't be more wrong. I'm the tune-digging, dancing type. But I really can't see the point of being a presenter-of-music if you don't understand music and can't hear which chords sound good etc. It's not really a good premise for choosing the best tunes, is it?

LEQ wrote:

inspector wrote:

LEQ wrote:

inspector wrote:This may sound a bit harsh, but is you're not musical you really shouldn't dj. Unless of course you can get a job in an American prison camp spinning records as a means of torture (I heard they do that a lot).

Whether you want to be a DJ or not, it doesn't depend on whether you are musically minded, if you want to spin records, go for it. It shouldn't be about whether you understand harmonics or not, thats not the point, IMO.

Mate, that's exactly the attitude that makes Idol such a cool program to watch.

Well, from what I can gather from your post's, you attitude is the one that promotes intense chin stroking at the back of the room at a night, providing a much annoying running commentary on the technicalities of the DJ who's playing, trying to deconstruct each and every mix that he/she does. But hey, whatever floats your boat. John Peel was the one of the greatest DJ's I've had the pleasure of listening too, yet he couldn't mix for shit, would that have made him any less of a DJ in your point of view?

John Peel had an ear for music though. I believe also that if there isn't a musical bone in your body or you simply don't have that ear for music, chances are as a dj, you're going to be a bit crap. Don't stop you from spinning records in your bedroom, but if I pay to get into a dance I want to know the guys playing are going to be good. Dunno if that's the point the 'inspector' was making. But that's what I got for it. I know a few dancehall and roots selectors and they can't beat match for shit, but they have real musical ears and know good tunes and riddims, so they are still badmen.

Key mixing can be difficult, I have trouble identifying keys, but it is very easy to hear if two tunes go together. And the right amount of dissonance can sound rude as well as previously pointed out. it's not something I really concentrate hard on when I'm playing out, but it's very easy to tell if something is clashing over the headphones, so just pull the track off and try something else. Dubstep ain't that melodic and a lot does seemed to be based round the same keys and scales.

Yeah I see that point, and I can agree in part that you do have to have a musical ear, I don't think that you need to be educated in sound though to be able to hear whats good and whats not, or whats goes with what., if you see what I mean....