Tips for creating the core of dub/bro step? (please help!)

[Lukeff7]

Hi guys.

First of all, I'm sorry if you feel the brostep shits on traditional dubstep (it does) - I love both.
I've been dabling with creating music for some time now on and off, and I recently got myself a midi keyboard and wanted to get into it a bit more seriously so I've been lurking here a bit
I've started learning about EQ and making my tracks sound more 'lively' which is really cool but the only real progress i've made.

The problem I have with both creating BROstep and dubstep, if I'm finding it hard to make the right sounds.
I mean, I can re-create the dirty bass sound or the wobble subs, but I find using the filter alterations very difficult to get the sound I want.

First I make a basic drum track, then I usually make a dirty bass or whatever then try and lay down a sort of tune for it - but its difficult! as the tracks I like are those with the short cuts and bursts of different sounding basses. Do you know what I mean? The coolest thing about dubstep tracks I think is the wobbling of the bass and how it cuts and changes to a different grimey sound then back to a big swining low whoooppp then some kind of effect, etc, in a matter of seconds!
I find it hard to create the tune in reason, but I can kind of imagine it in my head.

I'm starting to wonder if its just down to having the right samples - all those glitchy sounds you hear datsik and skirellex (lol) etc creating, are they just samples?
And if so how on earth do they get hold of them.. is it impossible to make a tune like this with just the stock reason files?

Also I think I have difficultly using the LFO / frequency settings to get the right kinds of wobbles they always seem out of time or just wrong compared to the tracks I know.

So basically - I don't think just trying to get the right dirty bass sound and drum beat down is enough; I'm missing something. I suck at setting the wobbles or filters I guess, is there any special way to this?
Any help is appreciated, I've spent a few hours today and its just depressing when you can't make anything good sounding so I'll leave it for today and check this thread tomorrow.

I really wanted to get into this kind of music production as a new hobby to give me something to do with my life for now.. but every time I try I fail and its demotivating
Thanks guys, and I always make sure to give your tracks a listen when I see them in your sigs - they rock! If only I can do that!

[Samuel_L_Damnson]

you can always make your LFO bass more exciting by having more than one LFO, E.g. one LFO slowly changing the filter cut-off (Synced 16/4 or 8/4 say) by a small amount along with your main LFO. that would give your wobble more movement.

Have you added distortion or bit crushing yet? that can sometimes change the sound completely (For the better if you like Grittiness)

Also you need like a whole load of bass patches for bro step. often all they do is create a ass line then chop it up and move it into different bass patches.

Try automating loads of parameters to change over a period of time as well, like changing the index on Malstrom over time can give you some interesting results

as you mentioned Skrillex, this thread should help http://www.dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=198681

I hope that help its only sort of basic ideas to work with but just keep practising too and DON'T GIVE UP

[bassinine]

well, considering they don't use samples for their bass - yes, you can do it with stock reason.

however, what you really need to do is learn how to synthesize the sounds you want to use (production). then, use the sounds you've made by putting them in a sampler and playing them as you would any other synth (composition) - nn-xt is the sampler in reason.

this will take lots of practice to learn.

[amphibian]

Practise and experimentation, seriously. You only get better by playing around - try and modulate ANYTHING. I don't mind brostep, it's the brostep that has that high-pitched ear-harming synth that always agitates me. Brostep created by the likes of Nero always gets me going - namely because it's melodic and I find it to be a lot more intelligent than just a sub and high-pitched synth going for a full bar. Bass Cannon to me is the epitome of shit.

Just keep playing, eventually things starts clicking

[blinx]

A tip for the multi basslines:

Synthesize a mean bass.
Write a sweet 8 bar bassline that you can stand listening to for like a couple minutes on repeat.
Take Mean Bass #1 and duplicate the channel four times.
On Mean Bass #2 modulate/change stuff on the synthesizer (Pitch, Cutoff points, Filters, LFO Rate, Envelopes, Stereo Image). It doesnt always have to be super amounts of change, but try and create a bass sound that is similar to Bass #1 but def. different sounding to the ear.
Repeat this four Mean Bass #3 and Bass #4.

Now this will sound like garbage if you try playing that 8 bar bassline loop on all the channels at once. Instead go and start chopping the bassline up so that Bass #1 plays out the first two barrs then Bass #2 plays the second two bars Bass #3 gets the third two bars and respectively Bass #4 plays the Last two bars.
So when you play the four channels at once they will answer and call or juggle phrases with each other.

This could sound sweet right away but sometimes you have to adjust a few of the bass noises. you can also bitrush or apply effects differently to each of the basses, this well help give a diverse sound to your basslines when they juggle back and fourth (brostep). Now take that 8 bar loop thats baning after you tweaked your basses to really play off each other and copy it so you have second 8 bar phrase. Now change what bass plays what section maybe write a variation on the original melody. Repeat the copying and changing the 8 bar loop until you have four of them. Now when you play these four 8 bar loops in a row you get a decent sounding bass juggling 32 bar phrase, which is a pretty good start to a verse in my opinion.

This is kind of simplified but thats the mindset I take when i set out to write basslines that sound more brosteppy and less dubsteppy. Of course this is just my 2 cents and mileage may vary from one prodcuer to another.

[blinx]

A tip for the multi basslines:

Synthesize a mean bass.
Write a sweet 8 bar bassline that you can stand listening to for like a couple minutes on repeat.
Take Mean Bass #1 and duplicate the channel four times.
On Mean Bass #2 modulate/change stuff on the synthesizer (Pitch, Cutoff points, Filters, LFO Rate, Envelopes, Stereo Image). It doesnt always have to be super amounts of change, but try and create a bass sound that is similar to Bass #1 but def. different sounding to the ear.
Repeat this four Mean Bass #3 and Bass #4.

Now this will sound like garbage if you try playing that 8 bar bassline loop on all the channels at once. Instead go and start chopping the bassline up so that Bass #1 plays out the first two barrs then Bass #2 plays the second two bars Bass #3 gets the third two bars and respectively Bass #4 plays the Last two bars.
So when you play the four channels at once they will answer and call or juggle phrases with each other.

This could sound sweet right away but sometimes you have to adjust a few of the bass noises. you can also bitrush or apply effects differently to each of the basses, this well help give a diverse sound to your basslines when they juggle back and fourth (brostep). Now take that 8 bar loop thats baning after you tweaked your basses to really play off each other and copy it so you have second 8 bar phrase. Now change what bass plays what section maybe write a variation on the original melody. Repeat the copying and changing the 8 bar loop until you have four of them. Now when you play these four 8 bar loops in a row you get a decent sounding bass juggling 32 bar phrase, which is a pretty good start to a verse in my opinion.

This is kind of simplified but thats the mindset I take when i set out to write basslines that sound more brosteppy and less dubsteppy. Of course this is just my 2 cents and mileage may vary from one prodcuer to another.

[Lukeff7]

Wow, thanks guys for your AWESOME responses.

I really didn't expect to get replys at all heheh. Looks like i've found a new place to chill.
Was really close to giving up last night and going back to the lame video-game grind.
But this is much more creative so I wanted to get into it.

--

Okay so firstly Sinestepper -

Thanks for the suggestion of more than 1 LFO which I never really tried. I have tried using some bit crushing however I feel I don't know if it sits right until my track has more
excitement to it, you know? I'm really strugling with the basic bass sounding good enough and active enough instead of just droneing the same crap over and over.
I almost feel like I need to raise the tempo of the song, but that just makes everything rushed instead of 'exciting'.

Bassinie -

"however, what you really need to do is learn how to synthesize the sounds you want to use (production). then, use the sounds you've made by putting them in a sampler and playing them as you would any other synth (composition) - nn-xt is the sampler in reason."

I'm slightly confused here. I make the bass sounds with Thor (which is a synthisiser just to clarify? Sorry as I say relatively new to the electronic music thing, been an acoustic musician up till recent so I might say stupid things). So how would I then put it into a sampler? I've used NN-XT to sample stuff but only from the default pathces provided. So if I understand right, you mean make the sound with thor and other effect generators etcetc, then I can save it, and play it back with a sampler? Is this better than just playing it through Thor (is that a terrible thing to do?) Can I do more like that? Or is it just best practice?

Amphibian -

"Practise and experimentation, seriously. You only get better by playing around - try and modulate ANYTHING.Just keep playing, eventually things starts clicking "

Thanks, that did motivate me!

Blinx -

"A tip for the multi basslines"...

Thanks for sharing your technique there, i'm definately going to give that a shot tonight.
I think this might be what I'm looking for, as using multiple basses sounds like what I am after as you guys seemed to figure out.

---

So what about making those noises you often hear in both dub/bro like inbetween the bass sounds. Sometimes they are just like square-ish beeps, or cross-sweeping swooshy sounds and just general robotic noises.
How can I go about creating them, just bitcrush crap like the default patches? Or try and recreate those sounds somehow? What in, thor?

Cheers guys, you've given me the motivation to keep going with this even if it sounds shite at the moment.

Please don't let this be the end of the thread though! If anyone else feels there are any tips for getting started please share them - guarenteed i'm still going to strugle.

[benjam]

Just practise mate learn synthesis and youll be able to make anything you want.
Ps Brostep does NOT shit on real dubstep

[Turnipish_Thoughts]

Synthesis:

http://noisesculpture.com/how-to-make-a-noise

http://noisesculpture.com/becoming-a-synthesizer-wizard

Effects processing and understanding the (virtual) studio:

http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/S ... gTAXPHWi4C

Music theory for the contemporary computer musician:

http://www.musicroom.com/se/ID_No/0450469/details.html

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6809 ... -musicians#

http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesw ... s/7890082/

-------

[blinx]

check out boyinaband.com hes a reason head and will explain basic production/synthesis and all that jazz in reason with 7 Day follow along projects. I started there and made really bad DNB but he does have a dubstep tutorial too...

The extra stabs and sweeps are just that: some are synths that you will want to stab or mimick trance chords and some are just samples that get dropped every 16 bars an alternating which direction the sweep/noise/phrase would go every 8 bars. Like i have a sweep that goes low to hi freqs and it lasts 1 complete bar i would put this on bar 1 beat 1 of a 16 bar phrase then on bar 9 beat 1 i would put a sweep that goes from Hi freq to low. Thats my basic concept of adding the sweep swooshs and atmospherical elements to my tracks. Of course the more you vary and play on this concept the more interesting it becomes and less repetitive. Just my 2 cents.

Seriously though check out boyinaband.com hes a THor whore

[Jacob15728]

The robot sounds are made using granular synthesis. Take a cool-sounding sample, run it through a granular engine, and randomly automate the parameters until it sounds like a transformer. (Also pitch stretch, time stretch, add some delay and other cool effects, maybe run it through DBglitch)

[Samuel_L_Damnson]

The robot sounds are made using granular synthesis. Take a cool-sounding sample, run it through a granular engine, and randomly automate the parameters until it sounds like a transformer. (Also pitch stretch, time stretch, add some delay and other cool effects, maybe run it through DBglitch)

In Reason this would be the Malstrom synth. the Tabla sample sounds fairly robotic if you turn the motion down and automate the index

[dB123]

What bassinine was saying is that you bounce your synth lines that you made into audio files and put them in a sampler. A sampler plays audio files while a synthesizer works with MIDI. Just some basics. If you used Logic I could help you out but most of my tips would require having Logic. One thing I can second on is just experimenting. For all we know in a year everyone might forget about Skrillex and move onto a new sound. If you're just mimicing sounds all the time you will always be a step behind. learn about synthesis and create your own original sounds and be ahead of the game.

Some absolute basics to look up would be the difference between MIDI and audio files, filters (high pass, low pass, band pass), types of waves oscillators can make and the sounds that are associated with them (an oscillator is the thing in the synth the actually creates the sound, the rest of the synth manipulates it), envelope (attack, decay, sustain, release) and of course your low frequency oscillators (LFO!!!). Sorry for the rambling, hope this helps.

[Lukeff7]

Hi guys

I am reading all of this :) thanks for your insight.

I did start following Dave @ boyinaband.com 7 day dubstep tutorial but I admit I got a bit creative and strayed after like day 3 when I had my bass and drums :P.
I did get a good sound from that tutorial, but I found I couldnt make the good sounds 'sound good' in terms of which notes and when - maybe I try and overcomplicate the dubstep bass? Leaving no space for decent wobbles..

Some of this it is slightly confusing, people will say 'get your synth and run it through DBglitch' and things, and I don't know what these mean.
But as I say I'm only using reason at the moment (I do love reason!) and I am trying my best.

I gave it another shot last night and created something I'm more happy with, using the LFO > filter for wobbles (which is great but sounds more traditional dubstep than the new grimey stuff that I kinda wanted to achive.)

I've also decided to work a little bit on a song each night, so it doesn't get repetative, and also making sure I stick to it instead of just starting again.
Persistance seems to give results - if I could just tighten my sound up a bit I'd really like the 8 bars I made last night.
I did get one of the prime loops dubstep sample packs and noticed there are lots of glitchy sounds that can be used inbetween basses for that 'brostep' excitement kind of style, so that helped.

But I don't know, I kinda feel like I am cheating using samples for those :P I'd like to be able to create the sounds in my head into Reason, but i'm sure that takes much experiance!

I have a question - regarding taking my synths and playing them back in a sampler - I still don't understand why I would do this?
Isn't it easier to just program the synth to play the notes? Also, I've noticed that when using samples, the playback time of the sample differs due to the pitch of each different note (understandibly.)
I know that it can be done so that samples can retain timeframe in other software, so it is the same sample just with a different frequency or pitch or whatever - but I don't know if reason has it / how to do it in the NN-XT. (even windows media player can do it)

So, other than the timeframe of the sample issue, even without that, what do I benefit through playing my synths through samples?

Sorry, I probably sound really stupid but its all new to me.
And my technical terms are awful, up till using reason I was just playing acoustic music and did everything by ear and had no need for technical knowhow.

Maybe I can upload the 8 bars or so I created to sound cloud or something, you guys could have a listen and tell me what I can add / change / what sucks.

Thanks for your support I didn't expect such a helpful community ! :)

[Electric_Head]

you can`t use glitch through Reason because Reason does not allow vsts.
use those loops, but don`t just use a full 16 bar loop as it appears
break it into individual samples, hits, kicks, hats, etc.
recreate the beat
regarding synths and a sampler, you would do this if you want to rework the sound with external effects.
that is what is called resampling.
essentially using an existing sound and altering it to become a new sound.

[Lukeff7]

So, to sample my synth, would I first make the notes and the synth, then record the riff, then save it as a sample, load it into a sampler (NN-XT) then play the whole riff through the sampler.
Then add effects to the sampler to try and recreate a new sound yeah?
Is that how its done?

(And why can I not just add the effects straight to the synth i.e thor? I mean I know I CAN, I'm asking why is it better this way.. just trying to understand )

thanks <3

[Electric_Head]

essentially you will create a 4 bar loop of one note.
the sampler allows you to play that one note across the keyboard.
you add the effects from there.
you can just do the processing to the synth but will still need to introduce variation which can be easier once the sound has been exported.
so for example if you have a bass growl
you would run it through the nn-xt allowing you to play a tune with that tone you made.
from there you can either take the loop you wrote and add unison, scream ,etc.
so from one synth you know have maybe 10 synth lines
which is far lighter than 10 synths playing at the same time.
it`s not always about cpu though.
often it is easier to achieve the results you want with external effects.
Reason however doesn`t have external effects perse.
They`re all part of the Reason engine.
So in effect, adding them to your effect chain or bouncing the sounds will give you similar results

[Turnipish_Thoughts]

There are various benefits from re-sampling your synth sounds and screwing them about in a sampler. But i would technically class that process as a bit more advanced than the kind of stuff you are doing at the moment.

Re-sampling requires a bit more of a solid understanding of production theory and a know-how of audio processing to pull off well, otherwise you're pretty much going to be flailing about a bit. Its not an 'essential' aspect of production to be honest and some people don't use the re-sampling technique if fairly rarely at that. I'm someone that tends not to. You're perfectly capable of making very decent tracks without looking into re-sampling at all.

Actually using samplers on the other hand, to use samples in your tracks, then of course you have to use them, but in the case of bouncing a synth sound into a sampler, right now in your production capabilities, you would gain very little benefit from doing so. re-sampling allows you to add additional effects processing onto the sample.

For example once you've bounced the audio into the sampler, you could alter the pitch, chop it into sections, re-arrange the order of the clip, add any number of effects to individual clips, apply filters/LFO's/envelopes to different bits, rearrange again, find something nice.... then bounce, use bits, drop other bits back in a sampler, rinse and repeat.

Using a sampler is basically another way of doing the same stuff you would do by adding an FX chain onto the end of the synth in reason. Except you have a bit more flexibility as to how intricately you can get into the sound clip and mess about with it. With a synth, it triggers an ON state via midi, and whatever parameters you have set on the synth it will produce a noise based on such. To change the sound you would have to manually alter the synth parameters or apply automation. The problem then being you may loose the settings of your original sound.

Using a sampler allows you to take a 'snapshot' of the settings on the synth and compile the output of said synth into a static audio clip which you can then screw with within a sampler. There's your benefit. But again it's down to taste, ability and intended workflow. Its not essential.

EDIT: And by the way, really really look into reading those books i linked up above, If you get them all and read them all/study from them, you seriously will know everything you need to know theory and technicality wise about computer music production. I've linked a collection of books that took me pretty long time to find out about track down and pull together in regard to the different areas they teach about. Those books as a 'set' really are the complete package and as far as my experience goes they are the best books of their kind for teaching this kind of stuff.



100th post!!

[Electric_Head]

good post

[Lukeff7]

@ 2 previous posts


I understand now. The first post explained to me how to do it, the seconed explained why you would do it.
I see that I don't need to do that for now, it does feel as if it wouldn't benefit me much so it ties in with what Turnipish Thoughts is saying