Dubstepforum.com

(again, sorry for my english)

I've been trying to put an EP together for the past three months so I have to actually worry about whether my mix is ok for a sound engineer to master or not. He told me he wanted it to be between -6 and -3 db. The thing is, I always do the mixdown while I write the track and I always aim for maximum loundness, with my kick or whatever's the main instrument kicking at 0db or very close. Basically, I slap a multiband compressor on the master from the get go, which also acts as a limiter and I mix into it. Now I'm reading all this stuff about writing the whole track at a very low volume, kick hitting at -6db and raising the volume when everything is finished. Did I mix like a complete moron this whole time ? Do I lose the dynamics between my instruments ? Is a track that's been mixed to maximum volume the whole time, then brought down to -6db of headroom ok to work with for a sound engineer ?

I did read everything I could on the subject but I still don't understand.

Monowan wrote: Basically, I slap a multiband compressor on the master from the get go, which also acts as a limiter and I mix into it..

Whats the problem with using a compressor or limiter on your master channel? I don't but I am just wondering. If you think that it somehow sounds better that way wouldn't it be the right thing to do?

I just try to get my track at the same volume of the three or so reference tracks I use, then maybe bump down the master a little if there's a bit of clipping. Not the most elegant method, but I'd always frustrate myself trying to get my drums to hit at x, my basses at x, etc...

RandoRando wrote:

Monowan wrote: Basically, I slap a multiband compressor on the master from the get go, which also acts as a limiter and I mix into it..

I see why it's wrong from a ME point of view (just went through the mixdown thread for the bazillionth time) but is it wrong if you're doing it for yourself/soundcloud ? Since master output never goes over zero db and the instruments numbers are only reative values anyway...it does sound okay when I A/B it with professional tracks that I like and I just hate working at low volumes. But I do feel like my drums are interacting between them in a different manner when I don't use compression from the start, what I don't know if it's that difference carries on in the compressed mix should I choose to compress after everything is in place like many others do.

Edit : Forgot to mention that this compressor is Maximus, it has a distinct color to it

Monowan wrote:I just hate working at low volumes.

Then please turn your speakers up.

To be honest, as long as it's not clipping the M.E. should be ok, I think he's giving that range as a precaution, but what you've described sounds a bit dangerous.

There's no need to push for that maximum loudness during the mixing stage. You run the risk of internally clipping plugins, or having overshoots causing audible distortion. When you're mixing, get all of the key elements of your track to shine, get it dynamic, and beautifully balanced. Then give it to your M.E. who will make it sound huge.

Read the Mixdown thread for helpful, practical advice about headroom.

It's just better practice to start with a raw mixdown rather than starting already into compressors and limiters.

dididub wrote:

Monowan wrote:I just hate working at low volumes.

Then please turn your speakers up.

To be honest, as long as it's not clipping the M.E. should be ok, I think he's giving that range as a precaution, but what you've described sounds a bit dangerous.

There's no need to push for that maximum loudness during the mixing stage. You run the risk of internally clipping plugins, or having overshoots causing audible distortion. When you're mixing, get all of the key elements of your track to shine, get it dynamic, and beautifully balanced. Then give it to your M.E. who will make it sound huge.

Read the Mixdown thread for helpful, practical advice about headroom.

I make sure individual plugins are not clipping. Anyway, I stopped using maximus during the mixing stage and I feel like it's a lot easier to make everything bass sound cleaner (I used to spend ages getting a sub line to sound good). I have to readjust my ears to this method and I kinda miss the "in your face" effect though

Although, mixing into a compressor (usually a high quality buss compressor) is a good, perfectly legitimate technique. Here's some advice about buss compression by mixing engineer Charles Dye:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showwiki ... harles-Dye

dididub wrote:Although, mixing into a compressor (usually a high quality buss compressor) is a good, perfectly legitimate technique. Here's some advice about buss compression by mixing engineer Charles Dye:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showwiki ... harles-Dye

Exactly what I wanted to read, thank you.

Monowan wrote:(again, sorry for my english)

I've been trying to put an EP together for the past three months so I have to actually worry about whether my mix is ok for a sound engineer to master or not. He told me he wanted it to be between -6 and -3 db. The thing is, I always do the mixdown while I write the track and I always aim for maximum loundness, with my kick or whatever's the main instrument kicking at 0db or very close. Basically, I slap a multiband compressor on the master from the get go, which also acts as a limiter and I mix into it. Now I'm reading all this stuff about writing the whole track at a very low volume, kick hitting at -6db and raising the volume when everything is finished. Did I mix like a complete moron this whole time ? Do I lose the dynamics between my instruments ? Is a track that's been mixed to maximum volume the whole time, then brought down to -6db of headroom ok to work with for a sound engineer ?

I did read everything I could on the subject but I still don't understand.

compression and limiting (aswell as EQ) is often used as part of the gain staging process when mastering to increase volume, so it's worth noting that the ME will consequently be compressing and limiting a track that as already been compressed and limited by you. This may result in audible distortion and less dynamic range and therefore can limit the amount of input your ME can have, depending on how you have used your dynamic tools . Sometimes it can help to send your ME a version with your own master buss processing as well as a clean unprocessed master for them to work with, this helps to give the ME an idea of the sound you are after (if you are using them more as an effect and if it's part the sound you are after, just let them know).

Basically, you will do less harm to your tracks (dynamic range, distortion/noise) if you avoid compression/limiting on the master buss. If you are using these tools just for volume, it is likely that high values and heavy processing is being used to get that volume, in which case you'd be better off just turning up your monitors.

Drop the volume of your reference track to match the volume of your track rather than the other way around.

I've got into the habit of leaving my master channel clean because I found that compression/EQ/saturation at this stage was simply correcting a dodgy mix. Get it sounding best you can then ship it to a mastering engineer.

There are 2 ways to look at this:

1)The way a professionally trained mix engineer will approach a 3rd party mix

2)The way a self recorded, self produced, electronic DAW bedroom producer will mix based on what they read on the internet
and have been brainwashed with from software developers.

It is common in the independent artist sector, although has very obvious downsides if you subsequently plan professional mastering.

Invariably a pro will follow this route to mix, or at least be fully aware of any technical compromise from not doing so:

http://www.masteringmastering.co.uk/gainstructure.html

Thing with multibands and heavy limiting is they reduce the mastering engineers efficacy for a number of common mastering procedures. In addition it often reduces headroom and compounds mix room monitoring inaccuracies. And I will assume we are talking bedroom not a semi pro acoustically treated project studio room (correct me if I am wrong, it is not my plan to condescend). People really should be seeing limiters and multi band compressors for the extreme dynamic tool they are.

In this instance you have cornered yourself a little. Now if you mixed into a multiband and take that off the mix will likely have a very different tonal balance and clip. Speak with your mastering engineer. Hopefully he knows what he is doing and can advise the best route forward for your music at this stage and if not employ someone who does.

For the future read the above gain structure article and you will be in better shape.

I hope you get the result you are after.

cheers

^ A much more experienced man than myself, regarding audio.


Barry,

With the article, when you discuss reference levels, it makes immediate sense if you think of tracking a band at the right level, but when you are mixing electronic music itb, would you advise setting your loudest channel at -18dbfs (or whatever reference level you're working at) and taking it from there? Or does it not really matter as long as you're not being ridiculous?

Hiya dididub, the article contextualizes by explaining the history behind the Vu meter Vs digital levels. As long as you are aware of this 'rule' of gain structure, if you peak a little higher than what is suggested you are unlikely to encounter great problems. Knowing the rules and ditching them vs not knowing them and running your DAW hot is the difference between ignorance and informed breaking of the rules.

I will tell you honestly if I was to run a mix here I might peak at -12 or -14 or -16 or -8 dBFS, but always with the well worn gain structure standards clearly in mind. But for someone starting out eroding tried and trusted best practice is not a good platform to build on.

Not saying that people do not do good 'hot' mixes either. But for every good mix there might be 6 compromises mixes through various misunderstandings.

cheers

I EQ, compress, and pan as I add each sound and layer the song. Then at the end, I'll add reverb and other effects and get the volume levels of each track perfect. Then a put a limiter and EQ on the master and do final mastering touches.