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I'm pretty new to production, but this is the farthest i've come on a track before.

It's an electro house sort of track, And I've got the main bass/synth on the drop, and after a few bars i have another synth come in; and then a few others to give it a more complex feel to it, more interesting.

But what I'm having trouble with, is getting the synths to flow together, and not sound so abrupt and intrusive. At first I thought it might be all in the mix, but that doesn't seem to be it.

What are some techniques to get synths to flow together yet stay sharp and not muddled. I notice on a lot of tracks in the genre, that use multiple synths coming in and leaving quickly, there is a lot going on in the background; because at my "drop", I have the main bass/synth triple layered for the main, high, end, and sub. It sounds good IMO, but other than percussions there isn't much else going on in the background.

What can throw in the background? To maybe fill out the mix more. I don't know much about using pads, and I swear I read somewhere white noise can be used to fill things out.

Point me in the right direction?

You could try panning some of these extra synths away from the middle. Not only will this give the track extra width and fill things out, but will help to reduce mudiness as you arn't cramming everything into the same space in the stereo field. A lot of people over look panning as a technique IMO, which is a shame because I don't think you can make a good mix without it.

You could also try reverb. Create a send on the master, and add a bit to every track in your mix that you feel could benefit from some. Because you're using the same reverb for every track, this will give the impression that everything is coming from the same space.

Longer envelopes?

koncide wrote:You could try panning some of these extra synths away from the middle. Not only will this give the track extra width and fill things out, but will help to reduce mudiness as you arn't cramming everything into the same space in the stereo field. A lot of people over look panning as a technique IMO, which is a shame because I don't think you can make a good mix without it.

You could also try reverb. Create a send on the master, and add a bit to every track in your mix that you feel could benefit from some. Because you're using the same reverb for every track, this will give the impression that everything is coming from the same space.

agreed! panning is as important as EQing imo, it really does help mixing down A LOT.

Gotta be careful when throwing high end synths together. It can turn into a mess

Most full intresting leads sit from 800hz-2000 hz so make sure your bass/drums/ect have an eq dip here..

Generally you would have your chords and a lead or two... Thats it. You could jump around a few different lead sounds... But i would not have them go off at the same time/together.

I would look at an analyzer and see whats going on with the sound. Most of the time the goal is to fill up the spectrum so the song sounds full and existing.

What i do is take a look at the lead sounds im using.. Check the analyzer and see where they reside. Take a filter LP/HP and sweep through to see where the bulk of the sound sits.. Or at least the interesting/desirable part sits. Do this for any other leads.. If another lead is occupying the same space as the first lead you eq'ed. You might have to do without it... that is if the lead parts are going off at the same time. Then when you have your lead sections settled out eq your chords so they are not (to much) in the way of your leads. You want the chords to give structure and purpose to your leads.


Its all about balance between eq, filters, and volume. You want to fill the box as equally and efficiently as possible.

Genevieve wrote:Longer envelopes?

Err, elaborate?

koncide wrote:You could try panning some of these extra synths away from the middle. Not only will this give the track extra width and fill things out, but will help to reduce mudiness as you arn't cramming everything into the same space in the stereo field. A lot of people over look panning as a technique IMO, which is a shame because I don't think you can make a good mix without it.

You could also try reverb. Create a send on the master, and add a bit to every track in your mix that you feel could benefit from some. Because you're using the same reverb for every track, this will give the impression that everything is coming from the same space.

Away from the middle? I'm new to production but I certainly have noticed how great panning is, I pan nearly all synths at least a little bit to get some movement and size to them, definitely a technique that makes sense to me.

But I don't think you understand, It's not that this new synth does not fit over the other, it's that when it comes in, the first synth cuts out immediately, as with a lot of tracks in this complextro sort of style (even in dubstep I hear synths cut in and out quickly, almost switching with each other and it still flows and creates a good rhythm)

I'll try the reverb, and I do keep hearing that having reverb on a send is good. But honestly whenever I use reverb for ANYTHING, it sounds completely shit, just muddy boomy (in a bad way) and echoing. I know less is more, but even the slightest amount makes it sound worse. If there is a good guide sitting around somewhere talking about using reverb like it should be used, I'd love to read it/learn from it.

outdropt wrote:Gotta be careful when throwing high end synths together. It can turn into a mess

Most full intresting leads sit from 800hz-2000 hz so make sure your bass/drums/ect have an eq dip here..

Generally you would have your chords and a lead or two... Thats it. You could jump around a few different lead sounds... But i would not have them go off at the same time/together.

I would look at an analyzer and see whats going on with the sound. Most of the time the goal is to fill up the spectrum so the song sounds full and existing.

What i do is take a look at the lead sounds im using.. Check the analyzer and see where they reside. Take a filter LP/HP and sweep through to see where the bulk of the sound sits.. Or at least the interesting/desirable part sits. Do this for any other leads.. If another lead is occupying the same space as the first lead you eq'ed. You might have to do without it... that is if the lead parts are going off at the same time. Then when you have your lead sections settled out eq your chords so they are not (to much) in the way of your leads. You want the chords to give structure and purpose to your leads.


Its all about balance between eq, filters, and volume. You want to fill the box as equally and efficiently as possible.

I think you're misunderstanding a little bit. It's a few bars of, when I said bass, I meant just a very midrange bass that has been layered three times over (A Sub layer, a very high layer, and the original synth), it's sort of a distorted/dirty juicy wobble-ish sort of synth, made in massive.

The second synth does not come in over this first synth, the first synth stops and the new one cuts in for a beat or two (I used a auto-filter to sweep down into the second synth). I know that sounds odd, but i hear it done in so many tunes where the synth switches up almost entirely and it sounds so clean and natural.

I do realize that filling up the spectrum would just help everything, and to do that doesn't that mean adding white noise and such to just fill in pieces of it?

I'm certain many of you around here would hate this sort of electro house style, but I thought I'd give it a shot, I think peple are calling it complextro.
I'd certainly ask elsewhere, if a really good electro house forum existed, but I do find people here to be the most knowledgeable and friendly at least in the production area.

But I don't think you understand, It's not that this new synth does not fit over the other, it's that when it comes in, the first synth cuts out immediately, as with a lot of tracks in this complextro sort of style (even in dubstep I hear synths cut in and out quickly, almost switching with each other and it still flows and creates a good rhythm

Post a WIP mate. That way people can hear exactly what you mean.

I'll try the reverb, and I do keep hearing that having reverb on a send is good. But honestly whenever I use reverb for ANYTHING, it sounds completely shit, just muddy boomy (in a bad way) and echoing. I know less is more, but even the slightest amount makes it sound worse. If there is a good guide sitting around somewhere talking about using reverb like it should be used, I'd love to read it/learn from it.

Muddy/ Boomy and echoing reverb is not what you're after. You need a PINCH of reverb, just enough to alter the sound, to contain it within the space of the song. It should be subtle, so subtle that perhaps the untrained ear would not realise that there is any reverb on it at all. But it makes a lot of difference sometimes.

sn0wday wrote:I'm pretty new to production, but this is the farthest i've come on a track before.

It's an electro house sort of track, And I've got the main bass/synth on the drop, and after a few bars i have another synth come in; and then a few others to give it a more complex feel to it, more interesting.

But what I'm having trouble with, is getting the synths to flow together, and not sound so abrupt and intrusive. At first I thought it might be all in the mix, but that doesn't seem to be it.

What are some techniques to get synths to flow together yet stay sharp and not muddled. I notice on a lot of tracks in the genre, that use multiple synths coming in and leaving quickly, there is a lot going on in the background; because at my "drop", I have the main bass/synth triple layered for the main, high, end, and sub. It sounds good IMO, but other than percussions there isn't much else going on in the background.

What can throw in the background? To maybe fill out the mix more. I don't know much about using pads, and I swear I read somewhere white noise can be used to fill things out.

Point me in the right direction?

make shure everything is nice and leveled, usuaully pads help some lol hints of reverd help , throw in more percussion 2/4 of the first drop so the listener wont get anoyed or bored kind of, depending how you use it, compress and eq, that simple

koncide wrote:

But I don't think you understand, It's not that this new synth does not fit over the other, it's that when it comes in, the first synth cuts out immediately, as with a lot of tracks in this complextro sort of style (even in dubstep I hear synths cut in and out quickly, almost switching with each other and it still flows and creates a good rhythm

Post a WIP mate. That way people can hear exactly what you mean.

I'll try the reverb, and I do keep hearing that having reverb on a send is good. But honestly whenever I use reverb for ANYTHING, it sounds completely shit, just muddy boomy (in a bad way) and echoing. I know less is more, but even the slightest amount makes it sound worse. If there is a good guide sitting around somewhere talking about using reverb like it should be used, I'd love to read it/learn from it.

Muddy/ Boomy and echoing reverb is not what you're after. You need a PINCH of reverb, just enough to alter the sound, to contain it within the space of the song. It should be subtle, so subtle that perhaps the untrained ear would not realise that there is any reverb on it at all. But it makes a lot of difference sometimes.

I keep hearing to not have reverb on any sort of sub frequency, so this would mean make sure that any channel's containing really subby sounds shouldnt be sent? Or is there a way in ableton make it so that say, only frequences above a certain pint are effected by the reverb on the send channel?

Also, I've been using massive to create most/all of these synths, what should I have my gain inside master set at? Should I try to have them all the same to keep things simple or is there a general rule about that?

Alright, i'll post a WIP. First Tune I've ever really made it this far, and only been producing a couple months now, so don't be too hard on me!

I'll get it up in a bit.

The massive manual says to bump the master up to almost red (not clipping into the red), and then adjust the volume on the track in ableton. And maybe play with the voicing section in massive. You can make the synth mono, full. or full inv. Play with that and also the wavetable position in the same panel of massive.

sn0wday wrote: I keep hearing to not have reverb on any sort of sub frequency, so this would mean make sure that any channel's containing really subby sounds shouldnt be sent? Or is there a way in ableton make it so that say, only frequences above a certain pint are effected by the reverb on the send channel?

Put an EQ or filter with a High Pass on the send channel before the reverb on the FX chain - done! I even think the Ableton reverb has a built in HP you can adjust as well.

If you wan to get tech you could even do 2 sends, with a reverb type you send to a midrange freq band and one you use for the top end.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul08/a ... everb1.htm

Really good reading in this.