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Hey all,
Just a quick question to clear up a bit of confusion at my end... music theory time!!

I read a lot about chords/scales/melodies etc but find it all confusing still.

Chords: As far as I was always aware they get made from notes in the scale - so a 1-3-5-7 etc, which I was applying to all the chords in my scale, with relatively good success - however I've since learnt that this is not always the case. Can someone explain when the notes are off scale and why?

Chord progressions: Is this just a case of following the common I iv V I type of progressions that you see or just make up whatever sounds good - understood that "using your ears" is the best way to go but I really want a solid understanding.

If there's any good resources/or help on this I'd be interested to read - I can't read sheet music which is hampering my knowledge hunt on the interwebs a little! Really thinking that this is a barrier to me making the tunes I want to make (soulful, not just a roaring bassline type tune)

Cheers

I dunno about the others here but I usually don't think too much about my chords, I usually lay down a core melody with single notes and then add on whatever sounds good.

One thing that's going to help a lot is learning chord inversions. Depending on which is the highest note it's going to have a different feel. For example you could build a chord using C4, D#4 and G4, but also build the same chord with G3, C4 and D#4 for instance. It's the same notes but this time the D# is on top which is going to take the melody in a different direction. As a general rule of thumb chord progressions sound better the fewer notes you move between the chords (never take stuff like this as facts though but if you're not liking a progression try it out and see if its better). So if you wanted to play a C Minor going into an F Minor you could do it in several ways. One would be the standard variant using C4, D#4 and G4, and then moving to F4, G#4 and C5, and another would be to instead play C4, F4 and G#4. It's the same notes but in different octaves, in the second variant you're keeping the same C in between the chords. Try them both out in the piano roll and you'll see how they have a different feel to them. There are many different inversions of each chords of course, this is just to get you started.

Hope this made sense, remember it's just about finding what sounds good. Don't worry if a note is in your scale or not. The best way to find out imo is just to click the notes out one at a time in the piano roll and you'll learn which ones sound good and which ones don't. Soon you'll get a sort of natural feel for the scales.

Maxxan wrote:I dunno about the others here but I usually don't think too much about my chords, I usually lay down a core melody with single notes and then add on whatever sounds good.

One thing that's going to help a lot is learning chord inversions. Depending on which is the highest note it's going to have a different feel. For example you could build a chord using C4, D#4 and G4, but also build the same chord with G3, C4 and D#4 for instance. It's the same notes but this time the D# is on top which is going to take the melody in a different direction. As a general rule of thumb chord progressions sound better the fewer notes you move between the chords (never take stuff like this as facts though but if you're not liking a progression try it out and see if its better). So if you wanted to play a C Minor going into an F Minor you could do it in several ways. One would be the standard variant using C4, D#4 and G4, and then moving to F4, G#4 and C5, and another would be to instead play C4, F4 and G#4. It's the same notes but in different octaves. Try them both out in the piano roll and you'll see how they have a different feel to them. There are many different inversions of each chords of course, this is just to get you started.

Hope this made sense, remember it's just about finding what sounds good. Don't worry if a note is in your scale or not. The best way to find out imo is just to click the notes out one at a time in the piano roll and you'll learn which ones sound good and which ones don't. Soon you'll get a sort of natural feel for the scales.

Good advice man, I've already messed around with this a little bit, as I read somewhere the aim of inversions is to make it as easy as possible to play on a keyboard, and it resolves (not sure if that's the right word) easier.

I think I'm at that point where I sort of 'get it' but i still struggle with it a bit - as I'm looking to build some really soulful stuff from a chord progression and then program the bass through that, using the original root note - before inversion as a standpoint for the bass.

adover wrote:Chords: As far as I was always aware they get made from notes in the scale - so a 1-3-5-7 etc, which I was applying to all the chords in my scale, with relatively good success - however I've since learnt that this is not always the case. Can someone explain when the notes are off scale and why?

It would take an entire book on harmony to explain this. Try buying/acquiring a copy of 'Harmony For Computer Musicians' by Michael Hewitt, I've found it's a very good guide to how to build all the different chords. Essentially it's all about the different intervals between each note in the chord, more dissonant intervals equals a more dissonant chord and more consonant intervals equals a more consonant chord.

sburton84 wrote:It would take an entire book on harmony to explain this. Try buying/acquiring a copy of 'Harmony For Computer Musicians' by Michael Hewitt, I've found it's a very good guide to how to build all the different chords. Essentially it's all about the different intervals between each note in the chord, more dissonant intervals equals a more dissonant chord and more consonant intervals equals a more consonant chord.

does this explain everything in music notes, or keys? I've been wanting a book like this, i picked one up a wile ago but it had a grip of music note reading in it..... i hate that (can't read music notes). I want a book that explains everything based on piano keys, not music notes.

Push keys on keyboard, record what sounds good

No but seriously, I'm not "classically trained", but after a fair bit of self teaching and mainly experimentation I can now make decent chords progs and accompanying melodies rather than just basic 4 chord structures. Best thing for me was buying a mini keyboard and just playing around, still can't read music but meh

hey it seems like youre only using chords build from 1-3-5 and 7. These four tone chords are used mostly in jazz and some of the chords harmonized in a scale actually end up sounding dissonant (f.e. the min7b5 chord). try building your chords off of the 1-3-5, 1-2-5, or 1-4-5. hope this helps!

Soundcloud

Here's a test of this. I suppose keeping harmony has a big deal to do with it. Also if a note is shorter or longer that's probably when it changes during chord progression.
Just like speeding up or slowing down a song. You have to do follow that along. There are endless combinations and ear is really one of the only ways to make a unique melody.
There really are no rules set for melodies just theories you can follow, pick one and try to stick to that. Sorry if I can't be of more help.

If you have trained ears you'll be able to tell.

There are many, many ways of building chords and progressions. No quick fix to the kind of knowledge you're looking for though. Read some theory books, learn to read music and get some piano lessons, heh.

This is an amazing way of building chord progressions though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_leading

Cheers for all the tips - definitely going to get the computer music book and spend some of my 'work' time reading about voice leading..

pemattern wrote:hey it seems like youre only using chords build from 1-3-5 and 7. These four tone chords are used mostly in jazz and some of the chords harmonized in a scale actually end up sounding dissonant (f.e. the min7b5 chord). try building your chords off of the 1-3-5, 1-2-5, or 1-4-5. hope this helps!

Wouldn't 1-2-5 or 1-4-5 always sound dissonant? As the notes would be too far together no?

adover wrote:Cheers for all the tips - definitely going to get the computer music book and spend some of my 'work' time reading about voice leading..

pemattern wrote:hey it seems like youre only using chords build from 1-3-5 and 7. These four tone chords are used mostly in jazz and some of the chords harmonized in a scale actually end up sounding dissonant (f.e. the min7b5 chord). try building your chords off of the 1-3-5, 1-2-5, or 1-4-5. hope this helps!

Wouldn't 1-2-5 or 1-4-5 always sound dissonant? As the notes would be too far together no?

Nah, I do this a lot. You can even try making a huge chord spanning over several octaves and then just shifting the 3 to a 2 or 4 in the highest octave. Sometimes it's nice, sometimes it isn't. Give it a try.

try learning some jazz theory stuff, like what mode or scale you would use over a certain chord in a progression. and you could learn some jazz chord extensions so that the scales sit a little differently over the chord. And your chords and progressions in a key and their tonality are based on the major scale of that key and basically the only chords that are major in a certain key are the 1 the 4 and the 5 (which should be a dominant chord) and all the others are minor or some form of minor except the 7 which is a very tense tone and the most basic form of that in jazz is like a minor7flat5 chord.
and each mode corresponds to a different chord in the sclae (this is very basic use of modes) like the 1 is ionian (major) the 2 is dorian the 3 is phrygian etc....

hope this helped a little or at least gave you some terms or ideas of things to research

oh and i forgot to say that you obviously dont have to follow this stuff, its just basic outlines and tools for creativity. and you can have notes that are theoretically not in key or as you said "off scale" when you are applying a scale that shares a majority of tones but not all of the tones of the scale that theory says you should use, and this helps to build tension.

Almighty Alias wrote:

sburton84 wrote:It would take an entire book on harmony to explain this. Try buying/acquiring a copy of 'Harmony For Computer Musicians' by Michael Hewitt, I've found it's a very good guide to how to build all the different chords. Essentially it's all about the different intervals between each note in the chord, more dissonant intervals equals a more dissonant chord and more consonant intervals equals a more consonant chord.

does this explain everything in music notes, or keys? I've been wanting a book like this, i picked one up a wile ago but it had a grip of music note reading in it..... i hate that (can't read music notes). I want a book that explains everything based on piano keys, not music notes.

All the illustrations are shown on a piano-roll as well as in standard musical notation, hence the "for Computer Musicians" part of the title. You don't need to be able to read music to understand it.

popping in to say: intervals. that's all you ever have to learn.

that's really all music theory is, how the intervals and ratios of the wave cycles (Hz) relate and match up.

For me, theory is a framework that helps you encapsulate alot of information in a system that is geared towards a particular trend in music , in this case western tonality. Intervals barely scratch the surface of the amount of information there is.

As to where to start, i find a practical and theoretical approach the best. Theory , which is a terrible name for what it actually is, is really that memory you have of how things interact in music. Those musicians that say they don't know theory have their own system which works for them. It is essentially the same. A way to make sense of things. Some methods work quicker than others.

Another quick question I've got (or something I'm wondering from listening to some tunes), would it be fair to say that in genres like dubstep/dnb where you want a dark/tense vibe, that it would be best to play 'post drop' sections, on anything other than the tonic note? That way there's always tension until the toni gets reached (breakdown)... does that seem right?

Just bouncing ideas off everyone now