if you were choosing between kramer tape bundle and rennmaxx

[claudedefaren]

bundle, which would you do?

Looking to add some "warmth" plugins to my arsenal. Both very cheap on plugindiscounts.com ...

[fragments]

I have the Kramer Tape Bundle (currently trying to sell it). I like it, Kramer Tape is good if you want more of an obvious kind of saturation and the delay is fantastic (you can get a nice flange out of it too). HLS Channel Strip and PIE Compressor both sound pretty good too, but they don't sound good on everything (like real analog gear). I like PIE Compressor on drums and sometimes on Bass. The Channel strip sounds good on synths/vocals, I prefer to boost with it. Also, you can turn off the "hum/noise" on all this plugs which is nice. I find Kramer Tape a bit CPU hoggish, but I've gotten some interesting results resampling sounds through Kramer Tape over 4+ generations of the same sound.

I don't know anything about RennMaxx.

I'd highly recommend Slate's VCC and VTM over any of the Waves stuff. Though I'd love to try they new REDD plug in and Non-Linear Summer from Waves just to see.

[Sharmaji]

heads up that waves is changing their whole licensing thing... or something.

is RennMaxx one of the renaissance plugin packs? If so, they're good. 10 years ago they were, hands down, the best basic eq's, comps, etc. nowadays i think the stock logic comp & eq sound better... but they're still usable plugins. not really character pieces though.

[claudedefaren]

Thanks dudes

The licensing thing, can you tell me more detail? I do know that they recently changed licensing regarding TDM and SoundGrid, which is not relevant to me.

Fragments, from the way you describe the Kramer bundle, doesn't sound so appealing.

I can't even begin to guess what the Redd and NLS plugins do though.. help?

[claudedefaren]

I'm not sure if there's even any point in me owning Renn Maxx since I was mainly interested in the Vocal Compressor and the R-Channel, and I bet Fabfilter Pro-C can do whatever compression those do..

[Add9]

heads up that waves is changing their whole licensing thing... or something.

is RennMaxx one of the renaissance plugin packs? If so, they're good. 10 years ago they were, hands down, the best basic eq's, comps, etc. nowadays i think the stock logic comp & eq sound better... but they're still usable plugins. not really character pieces though.

To be honest, I don't think Logic's compressor is very good at all. To me, the renaissance compressor completely owns the Logic compressor. Some thing with the EQ in my opinion. I noticed a significant improvement in my sound when I changed from the stock logic plugins to the waves ones in the RennMaxx bundle. RBass is nice too. It's definitely worth getting, although I don't have any experience with the kramer so can't offer any advice on that.

[fragments]

Redd is a console emulation, I'm not sure...but I think the three real Redd consoles are unique one-offs. I believe one of them is at Abbey Road and I think Lenny Kravitz owns on of them. NLS is basically Waves answer to Slate's Virtual Console Collection, they both Emulate famous boards (Neve, SSL, etc).

From what I've read Slate's is truer to real analog--the channel strips and 2-buss VSTs have "cross talk" which has something to do with the harmonic distortion/saturation/"warmth" you get from working with an analog board. I read up on it before purchasing Slate VCC, but I've forgotten most of it, lol.

Honestly, even though the Waves stuff is on sale, I'd wait for for Slate VCC and/or Slate Virtual Tape Machines to go on sale--they are real mixing tools that add "that something" to a mix. It's very subtle, you can't hear it until you freeze the VSTs after mixing for a while.

You might also look into Satson Mix Bus, it's very cheap, but supposed to be every bit as good as VCC. I didn't find out about it until a month or so after I bought the Slate plug ins.

Only problem with Slate is you need iLok 2.

[claudedefaren]

fuck the ilok

[fragments]

fuck the ilok

I agree : ( but I love Slate's products, so I'll put up with it for now...

[claudedefaren]

I wish more people would boycott ilok'd products actually. Then we might see change.

I boycotted waves for needing ilok, as did many others. Now, they are open to my business.

[Simulant]

I don't get why people buy these plugins - they're trying to recreate a tape sound? Yet people wanted a replacement for tape for years, due to its limitations. And now we have people paying money for an algorithm that tries to sound like tape, in the hope that it'll somehow improve their music?

I have tried the Waves Kramer and just don't see the appeal. It makes the treble duller, which could be useful, apart from that it's just like any other saturation plugin. Haven't tried the rennmaxx, don't think I will. The claims that go with these plugins annoy me, I think the Slate Digital VTM is the worst offender. They make it sound like tape saturation will bring your mixes alive, replacing digital harshness with magical analog sounds. The only problem with that is that the plugin is digital too, I find this a bit ironic. But I'd bet that half the people buying these plugins have never used real tape and wouldn't know the difference.

I do like the crystal clear sound of my DAW, and would rather practice my producing and mixing skills than spend $199 on a "mixgoodiser". All this "digital harshness" crap annoys the hell out of me, there's tons of ways to create any sound you want. Still, there seems to be a lot of gullible people queuing up to buy these plugins. Personally I think that in a few years time, we'll look back and laugh at this fad.

Anyway, you might want to try some of these free plugins out first - who knows, maybe one of them will give your music that edge that you're after.

http://bedroomproducersblog.com/2011/04 ... t-plugins/

[fragments]

^You do realize that tape rolls off the treble right? And how is VTM the worst offender? They aren't doing anything the others aren't.

If you like the sound of tape emulation has it's benefits as you don't have to maintain the machine or buy tape. Sure it doesn't sound the exactly the same, but from the A/Bs I've listened to they are getting better. And even if they aren't exactly, some people like the sound of them regardless : ) I'm not claiming nor do I believe it's a magic wand that will make my music sound better/awesome. It's a mixing/tone shaping tool like anything else.

Personally, I haven't used a reel to reel. But I've used VHS and cassette a lot, which in many ways works in a similar way. From the A/Bs I've listened to I don't believe that VTM or Kramer Tape (especially Kramer Tape) sound like actual reel to reel. It's a VST with a certain character. When I went to purchase these I didn't purchase them thinking they are a "mixgoodiser". Though I'm sure a lot of people do buy these plug-ins thinking there are a "mix goodiser", but that goes for all kinds of plug-ins all over the market.

Also, FWIW, I didn't spend 199 on Slate products. All these companies have great sales on at least an annual basis so there isn't a need to put yourself out that much money.

Further more, I personally find the science behind analog modeling fascinating. I like reading the articles about how these companies measure what the different parts of a tape machine, for example, affect the signal and then how they try to emulate that in the digital realm. What analog circuits do to sound is desirable and translating that into the digital realm is a way for people who can't afford a 5K compressor to get a similar (maybe someday the same) sound for way less money.

I feel like the first people to nay-say these products are those who've spent thousands on analog equipment thinking it'll magically improve their music then are pissed that there is a plugin for a fraction of the cost that does something similar : )

If the OP wants something free and good as far as analog modeling goes I highly recommend the Variety of Sound plugins.

You can laugh at me if you want, but I don't see the point of coming into this thread and mocking anyone. Your response was barely useful, except for the fact that you threw in a link at the end.

But, opinions are like assholes, and I'm fairly sure the two of us aren't going to agree to disagree on this : ) You make music with the tools you prefer and I'll do it with the tools I prefer eh man?

[Simulant]

Yeah don't take my opinion personally - it wasn't directed at you. I just have a dislike for snake oil salesmen, and consider Steven Slate to be one of the most prominent for this sort of junk. I don't think I've seen any of his plugins that I'd consider to be essential and find the suggestion that tape has magical properties a bit absurd.

And to say my post isn't useful - perhaps I'll save this guy from wasting his money on a saturation algorithm. They really don't do anything that you couldn't do with stock plugins, it's just distortion in the form of a modelled saturation curve.

[fragments]

^I apologize then man : ) I misread it then, I did think you were calling me out a bit. I agree that tape doesn't have magical properties, but as I'm sure you know people think it does! Honestly, I read about VTM in Sound on Sound and it seemed like a decent investment at the price I got it for. I don't know what kind of marketing Slate has done, so I'll concede that he might be doing some snake oil selling like many other software companies are these days!

And I probably misspoke saying your post was useless, sorry for that!

I'm curious now though, how would you suggest setting up that saturation curve using stock plug ins? Maybe I've wasted my money as well, but from what I'm understanding from reading, quite a bit of reading, it didn't seem that easy to set up on my own. But again, I'm basing this on articles from magazines and info from the developers. From my reading though I did gather that using distortion/EQs one might accomplish it : )

[claudedefaren]

Kinda skimmed through these posts tldr style but my sentiments are fragments'. I find it highly interesting. I own a reel to reel. SunkLo you have posted a lot of opinions and made MANY assumptions on a subject you don't seem to know much about, no offense. So i will not address them, because they are your opinions, and mine are different

[claudedefaren]

Oh and i don't like Steven slate either. Snake oil to the max. Fake ass dude from watching vids of him

[claudedefaren]

oh son of a BITCH. i bought autotune 7 and only when i went to install it did i find out it requires a goddamned ilok. fuuuuck

[SunkLo]

SunkLo you have posted a lot of opinions and made MANY assumptions on a subject you don't seem to know much about, no offense. So i will not address them, because they are your opinions, and mine are different

Wut.

Also: http://www.sknote.it/StripBus.htm
Track crosstalk sounds juicy (not just channel crosstalk)

[Simulant]

Yeah sorry, I see how my post could have come across, I was just sharing my thoughts on these plugins. There seems to be a lot of them about lately - U-He is releasing one too. And as for Slate Digital, I think it's the hype around their products that annoys me. When VTM came out I was reading about it, and some of the comments were just silly. These are from a big thread on Gearslutz:

VTM however is a breath of fresh air. It does color the sound, but not like MPX does. It doesnt shift the frequencies or sound into one direction or the other.....but instead it "enhances EVERYTHING". As the opposite of MPX, instead of compressing the transients, drums all of a sudden sound BIGGER and more in your face.

VTM breathes life into everything it touches. It truly is that one plugin that could be called "the make everything sound better" plugin.

Oh…my…God. Fabrice what have you done? This thing is amazing! It made my mix come alive without using any other plug-ins. This is seriously going to make everything else (EQ, compressing, automation) much easier! This thing isn't a game changer, it's a rule changer. That being the #1 rule from now on is Slate VTM needs to be on every damn track.

I've seen loads of comments like this about their products, it gets old after a while. It seems that a lot of people believe that if they insert VTM on their master bus, they'll instantly get an improvement in sound quality. I'm very skeptical to say the least - I don't see why people think that a digital emulation of an obsolete recording medium is going to improve their mix. For years engineers worked to reduce the problems with tapes - distortions from things like wow and flutter, hiss, degradation of the tape every time you play it back, low dynamic range, reduced high frequency transients, etc. It certainly wasn't magical, and only the more expensive machines would get close to a transparent sound.

I know people are looking for a way to soften digital sounds, and maybe think that a digital emulation of tape will somehow give them nice rounded sine waves instead of aliasing, I just doubt that it works. I wouldn't say you wasted your money as you seem to enjoy using it, I just don't personally see the value when they sell for the price of a nice synth. Still, I haven't used VTM yet and will reserve judgement until I have a listen. I checked the files on the Slate Digital website, but to be honest I couldn't hear much of a difference.

As far as emulating tape in a DAW goes, I suppose it depends on what you're trying to achieve. I wouldn't have thought many people are after the wow and flutter type of distortion, or the hiss? For colouration and tape saturation, there's tons of free plugins about - Ableton's saturator is actually pretty good. Apparently if you set it to sinus fold, it sounds like tape saturation. The only thing I'd struggle with would be softening the high frequency transients, this is where real tape shines.

[fragments]

Yes, LOL. I'm pretty sure I read those threads at Gearslutz now that you are quoting them. Gearslutz, IMHO, should be taken with a grain of salt, perhaps a large grain of salt.

@obsolete recording medium: absolutely, I understand were you are coming from here. There is certainly a "golden age" mentality with a lot of people (gearslutz!). As far as VTM goes, I'm usually "cranking" the undesirable parameters because I like the sound of tape damage. For me VTM is not so much something to polish sound as to destroy it. As for the value, I coped VTM and VCC + an iLok2 for 199, so I don't feel completely ripped off I just love the warbley detuned sound

VCC on the other hand I'd argue is a real mixing tool.

I've tried setting up all kinds of things in my DAW to emulate what the different parts of a tape machine does, my experiments ended in either no noticeable difference or a sonic mess. I had trouble finding middle ground. I forget what I tried for the high freq transients, maybe soft clipping and EQ or a filter? I don't remember, lol.