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Other than the plaintive "sounds good, mate" style comments, is all feedback associated with the dubs & tunes worthless? The responder can never be inside the creators head to understand their vision, so any feedback that is given would only serve to further the responder's perception of the tune rather than the creators idea of where the tune should be.

"great atmos"

I have a very few people I trust for arrangement/music theory type advice. Then generally, I find the other people I go to advice, a relatively bigger group, can all give me objective mix down advice. But yea, feedback is mostly worthless.

Feedback from other producers is usually technical even when you don't ask for a specific kind. It's rarely interpretive about in response to the artist's intentions. Though, while I find that feedback interesting, it's not very useful because there will always be a wide rift between artist intention and perception of the audience.

And, not to be an ass, let's be honest that even as far as "deep" dubstep goes, I don't believe there is much artistic intention beyond the dancefloor--I don't mean this as an insult, it's just that most music produced for dance culture is, well, dance music. It's utilitarian. Attaching much to it beyond that seems silly.

That subbass melody isn't meant to represent that melancholic plight of the working class and those yoiyois aren't meant to be a commentary on sex slavery.

Might be taking this too far...

wub wrote:Other than the plaintive "sounds good, mate" style comments, is all feedback associated with the dubs & tunes worthless? The responder can never be inside the creators head to understand their vision, so any feedback that is given would only serve to further the responder's perception of the tune rather than the creators idea of where the tune should be.

I've been questioning feedback more and more atm and I think it is possibly along the same sort of lines.

Things like 'Yeah I like the drums but I don't like that x bit that comes in" well the artist that put that x bit in did so because they wanted it there. Some people may like it, some people may not should they get rid of it because someone said they should?

There may be some "authority crit" which is crit you get from people who are high up in the game (guys releasing consistent commercial tracks) which may have more power as it comes through experience and knowing what works but even then it's still what 'they' think works, sure that part may sound better not being there when they said so and maybe the mix might be better suited to them by being altered but then you are doing it to please their artistic visions.

People need to stop focussing on trying to make tracks that are based on getting a 'mean average' of everyone else's visions and start working on your own. The amount of times I put things into music that I know are going to make it less appealing to a lot of people who want to hear the same stuff but I do it anyway because somewhere in my brain is going "yeah do that, I like that"

I suppose that is the harder route to take though, working out your own artistic vision and trying to make it work rather than listening to what everyone else is saying and following the trends.

^Ah! I see. I think I'm misreading wub's OP. Nice one outbound, couldn't agree more! I still stand by what I said though : )

ParasiTTe wrote:"great atmos, check out my latest shit tune www.soundcloud.com/xxxxx"

finished that one for ya

outbound wrote:

wub wrote:Other than the plaintive "sounds good, mate" style comments, is all feedback associated with the dubs & tunes worthless? The responder can never be inside the creators head to understand their vision, so any feedback that is given would only serve to further the responder's perception of the tune rather than the creators idea of where the tune should be.

I've been questioning feedback more and more atm and I think it is possibly along the same sort of lines.

Things like 'Yeah I like the drums but I don't like that x bit that comes in" well the artist that put that x bit in did so because they wanted it there. Some people may like it, some people may not should they get rid of it because someone said they should?

There may be some "authority crit" which is crit you get from people who are high up in the game (guys releasing consistent commercial tracks) which may have more power as it comes through experience and knowing what works but even then it's still what 'they' think works, sure that part may sound better not being there when they said so and maybe the mix might be better suited to them by being altered but then you are doing it to please their artistic visions.

People need to stop focussing on trying to make tracks that are based on getting a 'mean average' of everyone else's visions and start working on your own. The amount of times I put things into music that I know are going to make it less appealing to a lot of people who want to hear the same stuff but I do it anyway because somewhere in my brain is going "yeah do that, I like that"

I suppose that is the harder route to take though, working out your own artistic vision and trying to make it work rather than listening to what everyone else is saying and following the trends.

Great post.

I think some people want to get an idea if it's stuff others will DJ/play out. Anything technically wrong or out of place is generally not going to be changed at this point - so anything detailed and constructive is usually useless. At least that is stuff that is being promo'd.

Stuff people are still working on is where feedback/reaction is important. The artists on my label sometimes send me early WIP and artists connected to Darkfloor or the Mantis Radio show that have become more than just tracks I play will sometimes send me WIP stuff to see what I think as those few rate my opinion.

But largely - the promo run - to get the newsbites - largely worthless and ego led really. I don't buy music because DJ X says it's cool. I'll seek it out if DJ Y plays it a lot, seems genuinely into it and so forth. That's kinda what people take from the stuff we push through the Darkfloor portal really I suppose. They know to trust us - well the ones that are interested in what we at any rate.

I think the problem is that no one wants to be a dick and say if something doesn't sound good. Maybe there afraid if they say something bad that when it comes time for them to get feedback people are going to shit talk on there track.

I could be wrong though.

But yes, I would say most feedback is useless. I think the only thing you can really do is pay attention to everything that's being said about your tunes and try to find that one bit of criticism.

Example; my tunes, much like everyone else's, have gotten (mostly) positive feed back. But someone said that my hats/percussion sounded boring. I took that, ran with it, and I feel that it really made me step my game up and make the changes to not have that happen again. I didn't alter my song, but instead applied the changes to future productions.

fragments wrote:That subbass melody isn't meant to represent that melancholic plight of the working class and those yoiyois aren't meant to be a commentary on sex slavery.

Crimsonghost wrote:I think the problem is that no one wants to be a dick and say if something doesn't sound good. Maybe there afraid if they say something bad that when it comes time for them to get feedback people are going to shit talk on there track.

Agreed about this. If someone says hi to me on facebook and says they like my music (and are a genuine fan not just trying to spam me) and they send me a link to listen to which sounds like absolute crap I'm hardly going to want to be the one telling them they should rework a lot of it and that it doesn't sound good. because now when they talk to their friends:-

"Oh yeah Outbound I used to think his music was alright but turns out he's actually a bit of a dick..."

If somebody tells you how it sounds to them, but it's not what you intended, isn't that useful?

fragments wrote:those yoiyois aren't meant to be a commentary on sex slavery.

More to do with human and machine?

I get that for professionals, it must be pretty useless unless you know and trust the person giving their opinion. You know that people will listen to your tracks for pleasure, so one of those people complaining about a noise or some phrasing doesn't matter. In fact, if you did take every bit of that advice your tunes would come out pretty bland, as evidenced by the vast majority of lowest common denominator pop music.

Me on the other hand? As a musical amateur who's been producing a few months, I can say that the knowledge that someone actually listened to your song and was motivated to say something is a massive boost, even if it's just "nice tune mate, get's a bit boring towards the end". Actual targetted feedback and production advice is massively welcome.

Don't get me wrong, the majority of my music is produced with me in mind, and I have no intention to seek popularity. I don't hold hopes of making money off music, because I know that the things I want to be producing in 10 years will have no mass appeal (unless the masses suddenly get into music that takes time and effort to comprehend). That will take a lot of learning. But the tunes on my soundcloud are genuine (if not particularly great at the moment) attempts at making something that some people might listen to for pleasure. They're there because they are made for an audience. So yes, even just an indication that some pleasure was derived is nice for me.

fragments wrote:those yoiyois aren't meant to be a commentary on sex slavery.

Nah they're meant to be a catalyst for it, get me? With the right formant filters, I can land the pair of blondes over there that I can't tell apart.


I think feedback is useful when the track is still in progress. Shit like "it loses energy in that long section in the middle" is pretty valuable because most times it's not something I'll pick up on. If I've heard a track a thousand times I lose a lot of perspective like that so fresh ears can be pretty valuable.

I pretty much only care about negative comments though. I don't really care what's good, I wanna know what needs improvement. Once it's all set it stone and I'm happy with it though, feedback becomes pretty worthless. At that point it's just getting people's opinions and making conversation. It can be useful for future productions if you notice a trend like everyone saying your lead synths are weak. But a single opinion is just a point in the feedback graph, not really that influential on its own.

SunkLo wrote:I pretty much only care about negative comments though. I don't really care what's good

This is pretty much where I am when it comes to feedback on my own stuff. It's pretty obvious If I'm sending something to someone to check out that I in some way already think the tune is 'good' or has 'good' parts. What I mostly look for in feedback is are you as the listener just as interested to hear what's next in the first 30 seconds of the song as you are the last. After hearing your own track a million times I know where every incidental, change up, effect, and break is, so it gets hard to make sure the song stays interesting.

As far as creative feedback, it's pretty worthless imo. This lead has this much reverb/delay on it because that's the vibe I was going for, the melody is how it is because that's the feeling I tried to capture. If these creative aspects aren't ruining a mix or disrupting the flow of a tune its hard to really take someones opinion on that to heart.

With that in mind I try to give feedback to others in the same way. I try to stray away from harping on the creative decisions of others and just listen to an entire song within the context of itself only. That being said, sometimes peoples drums are weak as shit and I can't help myself.. I love drums too much

No, I don't think that feedback itself is inherently worthless (it seemed like that is what Wub was trying to get at in the OP), but I do think that most feedback I get is worthless.

It depends. I only started making tunes in December and when I began I knew little about structure, mixdowns, and never heard of reverb or delays other effects. All the feedback I got initially (which some of it was a bit harsh but contructive) really helped me to improve markedly in a small amount of time because it was specific. Criticism, made me aware of the productions tools I had at my disposal.

So in this anecdotal case, being new to music production, feedback helps a lot. For more established producers I don't think the feedback forum holds the same value. For instance, if you're trying to get your tunes release ready, you're going to need the advice of other producers in your respective genre. They'll usually have more technical knowledge of writing, arranging, mixing and mastering, sound design etc.

And I have to agree, having people say things like "your tune needs this, or is missing this" isn't all that helpful when you've constructed your tune a certain way deliberately.

There are a number of posters in that forum who give pretty good technical advice, however. Test Recordings for example. Wub, you're pretty consistent with feedback as well.

I try to give feedback from time to time.

That is the one thing I don't like. So many posts go without feedback at all, even if you've regularly commented on other's tunes. That's frustrating. This is why I post on other forums as well.

feedback is like faith so in the end you believe or you dont but it doesnt change anything

BudSpencertron wrote:feedback is like faith so in the end you believe or you dont but it doesnt change anything

You always say something deep..

BudSpencertron wrote:feedback is like faith so in the end you believe or you dont but it doesnt change anything

Of course it does, stop trying to sound like a badman

I think it is very hard to give good, usefull feedback. most of the time it is wasted. I also think it depends on who gives the feedback, whether it is from someone who knows what they are talking about or not.

I think the feedback in the "feedback thread" is a double edge sword tbh, On the + side it gets people listening to your song, on the - side people will find something ever so small and nit pick just to have something to say so they can post there song. its quite rare to get real, usefull feedback imn there IMO which is why I dont post in there any more. I do go through listening from time to time and only post if I feel like it could be helpfull..