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Anybody know of any? I've read a few articles and know how to fix phase issues when it comes to things like layering drum sounds, but I'm curious as to how phase cancellation affects sustaining noises, like a bass sound while the kick plays over it. I just want to get more in depth with it because I've noticed things losing a lot of presence in the mix when I check it on multiple systems, and I believe this to be phase cancellation. But then again, I could always be wrong and just suck at mixdowns!

Thanks man, not really any new knowledge in those, but the second one definitely has some very useful tips. Seeing as how I can only find info on phase issues when it comes to layering kick sounds, is this the only aspect of your mix where you should be worried about phase problems?

zosomagik wrote:Thanks man, not really any new knowledge in those, but the second one definitely has some very useful tips. Seeing as how I can only find info on phase issues when it comes to layering kick sounds, is this the only aspect of your mix where you should be worried about phase problems?

I don't think that a lot of people like bump every single element and start checking the waveforms. Actually fixing phase issues like that would take years.

If they hear the phase issue they would probably do something about it tho.
I have the izo ozone imager that shows me if I have a phase issue and It has an option for rotating the phase. Not that i use it so much...

I think some of the things that I can hear disappearing from my mix just might have too wide of a stereo image, but I dont ever really make things THAT wide. At least I don't think I do.

Interesting thing to do with phasing:

Take a saw and a ramp (inverted saw) and send them through the same channel at the same volume, then change the phase of the ramp, instant PWM

Also the only reason things would disappear from your mix with too wide of a stereo image is if they are low frequencies and have the nearly exact opposite phase, even then they wouldn't really be vanishing, your brain just tricks you in to thinking they are.

I guess saying that things were disappearing was the wrong way to describe it. Things seem to lose presence, like they sound lifeless and hollow when I check them on other systems.


P.s. that's a dick move on my brains part tricking me like that

This "phase issues when layering sounds" is bullshit. layer then bounce, you can see the waveform. What do you think it's going to phase with exactly? Just layer the sound and adjust the positions until it sounds how you want it!

Well he's obviously talking about the constituent samples cancelling with each other, not the bounced waveform cancelling with something else. Phasing while layering is an actual issue but not that important in the grand scheme of things.

OP you're probably just shit at mixing. No need to be zooming way in playing peak/valley detective.

Any two sounds of different frequency played at the same time will cancel each other for brief periods of time as the waves go in and out of phase. The real problem is when you have a static phase relationship between audio streams like if your right channel was inverted compared to your left. You'll probably want to make sure that there's minimal phasing going on at the start of an aggregate kick or snare sample so it stays snappy. You can't keep them perfectly in phase over the whole hit unless they're identical samples(which would make layering redundant). Better to just fade out the tail of any that clash. You'll get better results worrying about tuning, envelopes, eq and compression than you will fretting over phase.

Thanks for the advice. I think I just need to know my equipment better, or start mixing in headphones. My mixes sound really good until I reference them on everyday systems I.e. a car, my iPhone, or my laptop. Plus my monitors aren't exactly up to par with studio standards.

SunkLo wrote:Well he's obviously talking about the constituent samples cancelling with each other, not the bounced waveform cancelling with something else. Phasing while layering is an actual issue but not that important in the grand scheme of things.

Again with the condescension - if you check my post again you'll see that I said about adjusting the waveform positions. You can also do it with track delay. Personally I just like to bounce a sample out, then it's printed, get it?

Still, it's not an issue if you use your ears. Two snares that are layered and sounding good aren't suddenly going to start phasing.

@Rockonin Good find!

SunkLo wrote:OP you're probably just shit at mixing.

Or maybe his monitoring system is shit?

Icetickle wrote:

SunkLo wrote:OP you're probably just shit at mixing.

Or maybe his monitoring system is shit?

I'm definitely no pro sound engineer, but I do believe I have a decent understanding on giving everything their space in the mix. And for monitors I'm using m audio av40's soooooo yeah, not very good.

Paddy McMurphy wrote:

SunkLo wrote:Well he's obviously talking about the constituent samples cancelling with each other, not the bounced waveform cancelling with something else. Phasing while layering is an actual issue but not that important in the grand scheme of things.

Again with the condescension - if you check my post again you'll see that I said about adjusting the waveform positions. You can also do it with track delay. Personally I just like to bounce a sample out, then it's printed, get it?

Still, it's not an issue if you use your ears. Two snares that are layered and sounding good aren't suddenly going to start phasing.

Yeah you just made it sound like there was no phasing going on whatsoever or that bouncing down your layers to a single file somehow eliminated phasing. Bouncing doesn't really have anything to do with it other than capturing the final hit once you sort out any phasing issues between individual samples. You'd most likely be using your sampler's delay instead of trying to line up waveforms by eye. That's really only useful at the start of a hit or for multitrack recordings. You're not gonna magically snap two different kick drums into phase, you can really only make sure they have the same polarity at the very start, and tune, eq and envelope them to fit together.

SunkLo wrote:Yeah you just made it sound like there was no phasing going on whatsoever or that bouncing down your layers to a single file somehow eliminated phasing. Bouncing doesn't really have anything to do with it other than capturing the final hit once you sort out any phasing issues between individual samples. You'd most likely be using your sampler's delay instead of trying to line up waveforms by eye. That's really only useful at the start of a hit or for multitrack recordings. You're not gonna magically snap two different kick drums into phase, you can really only make sure they have the same polarity at the very start, and tune, eq and envelope them to fit together.

You are not understanding what I said to you. I line the waves up until they sound good then bounce, it's quite straightforward. Like I said, what are they going to phase with?

Well the individual samples will still be phase cancelling each other. Bouncing to a single file just consolidates that into a static phase relationship. There's no difference between two separate tracks playing samples, offset from each other by delay, or the two samples bounced to wav, adjusted and then bounced again. Bouncing does nothing.

Phase aligning tracks is really only useful for hits or multitracks. For hits you can just use the timing in your sampler, and for multitracks you just have to add on the delay between microphones. If you've got independent tracks being mixed together, you'll never nail a delay that keeps them both in phase with each other.

GregoryTJ wrote:Interesting thing to do with phasing:
Take a saw and a ramp (inverted saw) and send them through the same channel at the same volume, then change the phase of the ramp, instant PWM

Neat. Without adjusting the phase, every time I played my pattern with 2 instances p8, it would cancel differently every time, even though the notes were on the same line. lol Do you know any nice vsts for PWM? Only ones I can think of off the top of my head are synth1 and zombie killah.

Artie Fufkin wrote:

GregoryTJ wrote:Interesting thing to do with phasing:
Take a saw and a ramp (inverted saw) and send them through the same channel at the same volume, then change the phase of the ramp, instant PWM

Neat. Without adjusting the phase, every time I played my pattern with 2 instances p8, it would cancel differently every time, even though the notes were on the same line. lol Do you know any nice vsts for PWM? Only ones I can think of off the top of my head are synth1 and zombie killah.

This is probably because some synths randomize the phase each time you play a new note.

Lots of free synths do PWM, I think Massive does, with my previously mentioned method you can make Sytrus do PWM.