Sub bass level

[PhotonOfficial]

Hey there.

So lately, I've been wondering why every song that I make sounds so quiet compared to everybody elses, (not just the pros) and I was wondering if it had something to do with the sub bass.

Basically, after the mixdown, when everything sounds perfect, I will do the mastering or whatever. There are no extravagant peaks and everything is compressed nicely, yet even after limiting, the song is still really quiet.

The speakers that I use are absolutely awful. Two logitech speakers and a subwoofer that goes down to 80hz that doesn't work. Obviously, the sub bass sits well below 80hz and is completely inaudible, so I have to increase the volume of the sub to combat this.

Which is why I think a lot of my songs are very quiet; although I can't hear the sub and have everything sounding nicely, in reality, the sub actually takes up too much headroom because it is too loud.

I managed to get a chance to play my music through some decent monitors the other day and I noticed that the sub did sound quite a bit too loud.

Because it is impossible for me to mix the sub by ear, I need some help:

If my drums are peaking at about -9dB, how loud should my sub bass be? Bearing in mind that the sub is usually heavily compressed so that the level says pretty consistent.

Thank you, I look forward to the help:)

[forbidden]

just A/B something with a solid sub-bass on your setup and fine tune to choice. a sub with 80hz response is going to suck no matter what though, you should really consider upgrading your setup.

edit: i see you might be getting monitors for xmas, look forward to that haha.

[mthrfnk]

Perhaps A/B a tune you like using a spectral analyser and aim to hae the sub levels sitting in a similar way.

[PhotonOfficial]

just A/B something with a solid sub-bass on your setup and fine tune to choice. a sub with 80hz response is going to suck no matter what though, you should really consider upgrading your setup.

edit: i see you might be getting monitors for xmas, look forward to that haha.

But the problem is that no matter how loud I make the sub-bass, it sounds almost exactly the same just more squashed. I can't A/B it if I can't hear the sub bass in the reference haha.

And yes my parents have finally decided to get me some for christmas aha, hopefully i'll be able to hear what I'm actually doing when I change settings now

[PhotonOfficial]

Perhaps A/B a tune you like using a spectral analyser and aim to hae the sub levels sitting in a similar way.

Not a bad idea I suppose. I mainly just want advice on how loud the sub should be in comparison to the drums.

Say if the drums are -8dB, then the sub should be about 2dB less than that? Or more? What level should your sub be hitting if the master channel peaks at like -6dB?

[audiowaves]

just A/B something with a solid sub-bass on your setup and fine tune to choice. a sub with 80hz response is going to suck no matter what though, you should really consider upgrading your setup.

edit: i see you might be getting monitors for xmas, look forward to that haha.

But the problem is that no matter how loud I make the sub-bass, it sounds almost exactly the same just more squashed. I can't A/B it if I can't hear the sub bass in the reference haha.

And yes my parents have finally decided to get me some for christmas aha, hopefully i'll be able to hear what I'm actually doing when I change settings now

mix with your ears, not with your eyes!

If you're not sure, take a track that you like or you think that it sounds good and throw an EQ on it and compare your track to your reference track

edit: ok - sorry just read through everything again and you said that you have problems mixing with your ears. but still- a reference track that is professionally mixed and mastered should help, if it's with the help of an EQ or by ear...

[PhotonOfficial]

just A/B something with a solid sub-bass on your setup and fine tune to choice. a sub with 80hz response is going to suck no matter what though, you should really consider upgrading your setup.

edit: i see you might be getting monitors for xmas, look forward to that haha.

But the problem is that no matter how loud I make the sub-bass, it sounds almost exactly the same just more squashed. I can't A/B it if I can't hear the sub bass in the reference haha.

And yes my parents have finally decided to get me some for christmas aha, hopefully i'll be able to hear what I'm actually doing when I change settings now

mix with your ears, not with your eyes!

If you're not sure, take a track that you like or you think that it sounds good and throw an EQ on it and compare your track to your reference track

edit: ok - sorry just read through everything again and you said that you have problems mixing with your ears. but still- a reference track that is professionally mixed and mastered should help, if it's with the help of an EQ or by ear...

I still don't think you understand. My speakers simply do not have a low enough frequency range to play bass frequencies. Therefore, I cannot mix with my ears, which is the whole point of this thread. I don't even have problems mixing by ear - it's my preferred method - but it is impossible for me to mix the sub bass by ear if I simply cannot hear it.

All I'm asking is what volume the sub bass should be in comparison to the drums, as a general rule. Obviously I'm not asking what the sub bass should be every time as sometimes it might sound better being louder but because I can't hear the sub bass, I mix it badly and it affects my master.

I'm just wondering around about what dB should the sub bass be if my drums are at -9dB? After all, leveling is probably the most important part of mixing.

I suppose the only solution is to get monitors (which I am getting this christmas) but until then I need help. I'm going to try lowering the sub bass volume by a few dB and seeing if I can raise the apparent level of master slightly, as the mids and highs can be increased to fill up the headroom recovered by lowering the sub.

[123kidd]

Im in the same situation as you op as I mix on 5" monitors.
What helps me tho, is using a reference track as others suggest along with a spectral analyser.
Using this, you get a general idea of the relation (volume wise) of your kick to sub level.
Also what might help is to saturate the sub a little bit to hear it in the mix.
After all is said and done, I'll do a final check on headphones.

[ThisIsSovereign]

Well I usually have my kicks and snares peak at -12db in their separate channels and my sub constantly at about -15db which in the ends gets me the same level of sub-bass when compared to other tracks I play on my setup (2x KRK Rokit 8's/KRK 10s Subwoofer with crossover at 80hz). But yeah a "subwoofer" that has a response only down to 80hz isn't even a subwoofer, sub-bass is approximately 20-60hz.

[claudedefaren]

Perhaps A/B a tune you like using a spectral analyser and aim to hae the sub levels sitting in a similar way.

THIS.


Also, your track is lacking severely in the low-mid range. That area is pure gold.

[titchbit]

There is no exact number for the level your sub should be at in relation to drums, but if you need a specific number, understanding that it isn't a magical answer, I would say sub should be about 1-3 dB less than your drums.

[Huts]

i've found testing out your low end in your car helps. I've listened to enough stuff in my car enough to be able to pretty accurately A/B tunes on those speakers as well as my monitors, and they usually exaggerate the low end.

[bennyfroobs]

i got same problem with the bait sub, but i got some inner ear bud hedphones from argos for like £30 to see me by while i save up for some decent monitors. theyre good enough for basic mixdowns tbh.

to solve all of ur sub bass woes, just check some reviews of headphones on the internet and get urself a cheap semi decent pair (Y)

[Sure_Fire]

I'd get a decent pair of headphones. A good pair will usually get down to at least 30hz pretty easily, and since my monitors cut off at 52 hz (only 5" with no sub) my headphones are usually my go to for anything below that. Try to get a unbiased pair if you can, mine are bass heavy so I've had to learn to account for that while mixing.

Also, +1 to whoever said using a spectral analyser to A/B your sub level. I use ozones EQ for that since it allows you to capture a snapshot of the spectrum over time, which is really helpful in properly comparing tracks.

[Sinergy]

^Agreed with getting headphones. I'm surprised it hasn't been said a million time yet in this thread, monitors, let alone a sub aren't very effective if your room isn't treated. I have a pair of Rokits that I like to produce on, at least when it comes to arranging and general sound design, I wouldn't dare mix on them.

But even with headphones, sub bass is mad tricky to mix IMO, cause you can't really "feel" it. I have ATH-M50's and I constantly mix my sub bass to loud, sent three tracks into a master and the results that came back were painfully quiet and drowned out by subass.

A spectrum analyzer is a good idea though, especially when A/Bing with another track. And the A/B track, try to make it one that is in the same key as your tune, this way that root bass note that gets used a lot ill sound similar to yours.

[mromgwtf]

You're producing on cheap logitech speakers? Seriously?

@thread
There are no precise values, but you must know that sub bass is a special kind of sound. There is a threshold, you can increase the volume and increase it and it will get louder, but once you get over the special threshold, the sub bass will not get louder but just... messy. Hard to explain. Seriously, just play with the volume fader until you think it sounds good. You need to believe your ears... or a spectrum analyzer if you have these shitty speakers. And you need to get some headphones.

[PhotonOfficial]

You're producing on cheap logitech speakers? Seriously?

Unfortunately, yes, I've been producing on them for about three years now. My parents have finally decided to buy me some monitors.

@thread
There are no precise values, but you must know that sub bass is a special kind of sound. There is a threshold, you can increase the volume and increase it and it will get louder, but once you get over the special threshold, the sub bass will not get louder but just... messy. Hard to explain. Seriously, just play with the volume fader until you think it sounds good. You need to believe your ears... or a spectrum analyzer if you have these shitty speakers. And you need to get some headphones.

I understand. To be honest, I've put some good song ideas to one side for the moment to come back to when I have monitors.

[mromgwtf]

You're producing on cheap logitech speakers? Seriously?

Unfortunately, yes, I've been producing on them for about three years now. My parents have finally decided to buy me some monitors.

@thread
There are no precise values, but you must know that sub bass is a special kind of sound. There is a threshold, you can increase the volume and increase it and it will get louder, but once you get over the special threshold, the sub bass will not get louder but just... messy. Hard to explain. Seriously, just play with the volume fader until you think it sounds good. You need to believe your ears... or a spectrum analyzer if you have these shitty speakers. And you need to get some headphones.

I understand. To be honest, I've put some good song ideas to one side for the moment to come back to when I have monitors.

And are you getting a room treatment as well?

[PhotonOfficial]

And are you getting a room treatment as well?

Considering I can hardly afford monitors, I doubt it. But still, its something to think about in the future.

[Psychs420]

I remember reading about a technique in a couple of blogs and a book one time,and its pretty much the only method ive been using,it would be to keep your drums on say -10db,your sub bass would be -12-mid range bass -16 and hi hats sit somewhere around negative 32 to negattive 28 i think,it honestly really varies on the instruments but this method has always worked for me man.You wanna eq your drums though so they dont interfere with your sub bass too ,but im sure you knew that already