Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Industries

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bela
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Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Industries

Post by bela » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:39 pm

hey doods!

haven't been around here much lately. hope all of you are well. been pretty caught up with writing and schoolwork this year, as my time in the UK draws to a close (?!?! feels like just yesterday i was asking you if brick lane would be a decent area to live in).

as part of that whole thing i am writing a dissertation for my media degree at goldsmiths. i've chosen to focus on the concept of internships as an increasingly visible work position in many creative & cultural industries - & the kind of consequences that has for the people and the companies involved.

for my research i'm looking to both gather hard data (in the form of a survey) and case studies (in the form of interviews).

if any of you have undertaken an internship - whether it be in music, or in publishing, art, fashion, or even business - and wouldn't mind giving a few minutes of your time to share your experience, mind dropping your name here?


:corndance:

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Re: Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Indust

Post by magma » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:56 pm

My ex took the internship route after her Fashion/Business degree in order to get into PR... she worked internships whilst at Uni and then scored a graduate internship with a leading pop music PR company who she's still with now.

Essentially they took the piss out of her ROYALLY for a couple of years, but it seemed to be the only reliable way to get into the industry. Her Dad had to pay her rent for the Internship year and had to keep paying it for the first couple of years after she got taken on full time because the wages were so low. She's now a fully fledged PR-type and gets a half decent salary, but she definitely wouldn't have made it without her family subsidising her along the way.
my time in the UK draws to a close
:(

What are your long term plans? Back to the Chi? You'll be missed!
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kay
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Re: Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Indust

Post by kay » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:24 pm

I've had interns/placement students work for me if you want a view from the other side. They were all technical roles though.

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Re: Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Indust

Post by Pedro Sánchez » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:28 pm

Internships are no different to the DWP's workfare, if someone is competent enough to do a job, pay them, at the going rate, the (further or higher) education in whatever field provided the experience needed, this idea that a talented design/fashion/music graduate (or non-graduate if they have the skill) has to make tea and offer biscuits to clients for fuckall and do what the regular staff are getting paid for in most cases, just in order to prove he or she "worthy" is fucking nonsense and nothing more than exploitation. If someone asks for some work experience, someone who has no idea how that industry works and wants a taster, then fare enough but these companies are now exploiting the young unemployed, diluting the industries and devaluing higher education.
It was always following education...
Apply for job / Attend interview / Start work / Get paid
or
Apply for apprenticeship / Attend interview / Train on job / Get paid

now it's

Get Degree at select uni / Apply for intership / Attend interview / Joey / Get fucked off / Didn't get paid and had to get a wonga loan to cover the travel
Genevieve wrote:It's a universal law that the rich have to exploit the poor. Preferably violently.

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Re: Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Indust

Post by bela » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:07 pm

thanks for the replies, guys.

magma, your ex's experience is pretty typical of a lot of the people i've spoken to thus far. especially the part about needing parental/external support to be able to subsist while undertaking internships that are often full-time and unpaid (or at least underpaid). a big part of what i'm exploring is what kind of implications this culture of privilege has (and will have) on the creative industries as a whole -- if interning is increasingly becoming the "only" way into many of these fields, and you're only able to afford the experience if you're coming from a privileged position in the first place... what kind of demographic shifts will we see in these industries? moreover, what does it mean if the new generation of journalists/politicians/music execs/fashion head honchos/etc. come from even more privilege than in eras prior? lots of these fields have a history of middle-/upper-class dominance but it frightens me to think that the spreaders and makers of news and culture will solely be those with silver spoons.

it's a difficult thing, you know. i've taken on more internships than i can count on one hand. only one of them paid me. the rest required varying degrees of time commitment, but certainly doing most of them wouldn't have been possible had i not had support of some sort (most of the time that amounted to me moving in with boyfriends to lower the cost of living -- effective, but perhaps with some detrimental effects on my relationships/sense of autonomy). it was also exhausting -- rarely did i ONLY have the internship(s) going on. often i was also working 20-30 hours a week somewhere else, or studying, or a combination of the two. as a general observation i found that the most successful interns-turned-employees didn't have much else going on to distract them from the task at hand -- and oftentimes they would stick around for 6 months, 9 months or a year, until it seemed almost ludicrous to not take them on as a full-fledged member of staff. this all falls under the discourse of "passionate work" -- the idea that the rising generations are more interested in doing something that they enjoy and can identify with outside of simply making money, rather than going down a route that would be more financially secure but "unfulfilling" -- and it makes you wonder how far passion can take you before burning out.

but there are success stories, certainly. in fact my last internship manifested itself into a full-time, salaried, dream of a job i have waiting for me upon graduation -- hence my time in the UK drawing to a close. back to the US i go -- more specifically LA. if you had asked me a year ago whether i foresaw myself going back to america i would have said ABSOLUTELY NOT -- but here comes the discourse of passionate work again, and best believe i will take an amazing opportunity in a relatively closed-off industry directly after graduation, even if it is centred in smogsville.

kay, it would be interesting to hear your point of view, if only for comparison purposes to more "creatively"-driven internship and placement roles.

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Re: Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Indust

Post by Pedro Sánchez » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:13 pm

bela wrote:but there are success stories, certainly. in fact my last internship manifested itself into a full-time, salaried, dream of a job i have waiting for me upon graduation -- hence my time in the UK drawing to a close. back to the US i go -- more specifically LA. if you had asked me a year ago whether i foresaw myself going back to america i would have said ABSOLUTELY NOT -- but here comes the discourse of passionate work again, and best believe i will take an amazing opportunity in a relatively closed-off industry directly after graduation, even if it is centred in smogsville.
Congratulations. What field is it in if you don't mind me asking?
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Re: Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Indust

Post by skimpi » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:23 pm

I kinda of did, but I wouldnt really call it an internship, but i was an 'intern' and working for free lol
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Re: Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Indust

Post by bela » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:59 pm

Pedro Sánchez wrote: Congratulations. What field is it in if you don't mind me asking?
music! :dunce:

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Re: Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Indust

Post by Pedro Sánchez » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:00 pm

bela wrote:
Pedro Sánchez wrote: Congratulations. What field is it in if you don't mind me asking?
music! :dunce:
:W: I've read some of you articles.
Genevieve wrote:It's a universal law that the rich have to exploit the poor. Preferably violently.

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Re: Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Indust

Post by bela » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:00 pm

skimpi wrote:I kinda of did, but I wouldnt really call it an internship, but i was an 'intern' and working for free lol
see, this is part of the problem -- the internship exists in this kind of grey area that is neither volunteer work nor "real" employment, and very few (if any) regulations are in place to determine exactly what is/isn't an internship.

i'd argue this is part of the demise of internship culture -- while some offer veritable and incredibly useful experience and training, others are total BS, and very soon (if not already) having "intern" on your resume will mean little to nothing.

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Re: Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Indust

Post by bela » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:02 pm

Pedro Sánchez wrote:
bela wrote:
Pedro Sánchez wrote: Congratulations. What field is it in if you don't mind me asking?
music! :dunce:
:W: I've read some of you articles.
hey, thanks!

i won't be working strictly in editorial, but hope to carry on writing words in some form or another.

also hoping that a stable, full-time, weekday job will finally give me the time and energy to devote to creative writing when i'm off -- writing a novella this year and would really like to get more involved with short stories and perhaps children's stories too.

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Re: Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Indust

Post by skimpi » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:11 pm

bela wrote:
skimpi wrote:I kinda of did, but I wouldnt really call it an internship, but i was an 'intern' and working for free lol
see, this is part of the problem -- the internship exists in this kind of grey area that is neither volunteer work nor "real" employment, and very few (if any) regulations are in place to determine exactly what is/isn't an internship.

i'd argue this is part of the demise of internship culture -- while some offer veritable and incredibly useful experience and training, others are total BS, and very soon (if not already) having "intern" on your resume will mean little to nothing.
Yeah I mean I dunno, I spose it got me doing some tasks, but I don't think there are a lot of skills learnt there. I went though cos I enjoyed being there and the guys there were cool, and it was 1 day a week thing so it wasnt heavy duty full time hours as well as Uni. But it was kind of annoying, as they had quite a few interns there, maybe 1 per day of the week. I did get paid for some cover work I did though which was cool. In the end though I had to leave LDN after Uni and go back home, but when a full time position that was pretty much what I was doing there came up, I didn't even really get a look in! I didn't even get a friendly response saying no. I am hoping that having the intern position on my CV will show that I have the skills to do those things though, that has to be better than not having them right?
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Re: Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Indust

Post by kay » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:23 pm

It's really odd how the "creative" sectors (and a few others as well, notably psychology) have managed to get away for years with unpaid internships. Technical sectors, on the other hand, usually pay interns a wage. In fact, in most cases internships are built into degree programmes where a student takes a year out (usually in their 3rd year) to work in industry. Chemistry, chemical engineering, computer science and industrial design courses seem more geared towards this sort of thing, and these days students are actively encouraged to go down this route. You get paid less than a graduate but the salary's still decent (typically £16-18k I think). Some courses still require students to do some distance learning and take exams as well.

Frankly, I have always been impressed by the interns who've worked for me. They're usually more keen to take on challenges, tasks and responsibilities than experienced staff. Whether it's because they don't know any better or they just want to prove they can do it is up for debate. But I've always found that there's no point treating them like they know nothing and need to be given "safe" jobs. Treat them as normal staff and you get much more out of them. We offered every single intern a job before they left to return to uni because they were all literally the best employees we had. Only one was ever silly enough to take up the offer but that's another matter.

Of course, there's also the other side of the story where many companies do only assign interns safe, routine, menial jobs. Unless they happen to be one of those methodical types, most interns will find such jobs pretty boring and won't really learn much. It makes for an easy year out, and chances are they will get job offers too. But those companies have probably missed the chance to inject some energy and dynamism into their ranks.

I would almost always advise that Uni students seriously consider taking a year out in industry, regardless of whether they end up in a boring or exciting job. Its a very good, low-risk way to see what the real world really is like. It's also a very good way for the company to get to know them and catch the good ones as early as possible, and is therefore the best way to guarantee a job immediately after graduation (obviously they do have to work hard and do a good job). It also looks really good on a CV because it shows they have experience in the real world in a relevant field (as opposed to typical student-type part time jobs). At the very least, it makes for a more interesting interview.

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Re: Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Indust

Post by bela » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:21 pm

hey folks -

any of you who have undertaken an internship (or know of someone who has), if you wouldn't mind taking 10 minutes of your time to fill out my survey i'd be sincerely grateful for your feedback.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1oRvH1b ... o/viewform

cheers! :corndance:

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Re: Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Indust

Post by test_recordings » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:17 am

Maybe creative industry interns aren't going in for something that has an easily defined 'value' so they have to prove themselves.

Technical stuff is "this problem can be solved someway by maths so someone somewhere should definitely be able to do it". It's just a case of keeping enough people on the task long enough to crack it in that case, even if it's to re-design the whole system because they gave up trying to solve the original problem.

Creative ventures are more of a gamble. Not that I think it permits people who are probably already rich from not paying interns though. However, that seems to be the general logic of it.

Psychology is fucking horrendous for it though. I'm a member of the BPS and it's well known that all (or 90% roundabout) of clinical psychology trainees are white, middle-class, female, and most likely can drive as well. The competition is insane and the stupid thing is that the people that could do best at it due to their life experiences are unable to do the training etc unpaid because they're either unable to be supported by their parents or have families to support themselves. It's not fair on applicants, doesn't help mental health services, and can actually be afforded with the NHS budget so no excuses on that one imo. I'm voting for mandatory intern/training stipends on at least minimum wage whenever it comes up (and I could potentially start a campaign to force it, actually).

To be honest though, with creative jobs, there is actually a huge case for trying to do it yourself. My mate never did an 'internship' so much as doing a bit of free work here and there for the opportunity to expose himself with a view to making his own business. Pretty much straight from graduation he's been a freelance illustrator/graphic designer and the only things he's needed to do that are a macbook and a website. Internships look like they're for unimaginative and/or greedy bitches in that respect
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Re: Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Indust

Post by bela » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:39 pm

some interesting points you raise above.

i agree that creativity has become a somewhat nebulous and overly generalised concept for which there is no easily defined value. however i think it's dangerous for young people to under-value their creative work as a result. the notion that you must grind away at the bottom of the socioeconomic order in order to 'prove' your worth to a job market is a dangerous one - regardless of the field in which it takes place. the whole discourse around 'Do What You Love' suggests that it's doing yourself a disservice to do anything less than a job you adore, even if it's for free - however there is an oft-ignored middle ground, which is jobs that are humanistic, fulfilling and creative, but ones that still are stable and which compensate their employees justly.

i think the scenario varies pretty widely depending on the companies which are hiring interns. internships used to operate pretty exclusively (in the UK, anyway) in large, multinational corporations that also had ties in america (hence the adoption of the 'internship' term). those internships were usually paid (though at a lower salary than other entry-level positions in the companies) and had a high retention rate for interns that went on to be salaried employees. the idea has now dissipated into a range of fields and companies of all shapes and sizes. nowadays in london it seems that many internships on offer are at small start-ups, many of which stand little chance of making a solid profit in the long-term. the positions they describe are usually in tandem with a handful of paid employees, and are tools to build a small team without having to pay everyone involved. often times the responsibilities differ little from paid employee to unpaid intern. this, to me, defeats the point and becomes largely exploitative. young people are more and more desperate to get a foot in the door in the already overcrowded industry, and i believe many internships advertised play with that desperation.

good to get your perspective from outside the creative industries, too. as i mentioned in previous posts the homogenisation of the creative industries is looking to be one of the biggest consequences of the hard work/no pay expected throughout internship culture and it's a real shame. arguably the homogenisation of psychology workers would have even more damaging consequences. thanks for your input.

the case you make for DIY work in the creative industries is, of course, a veritable option but unfortunately no more stable than internships for many aspiring creatives. of course you can draw the conclusion that those who don't make it in their own right simply don't have 'it' - the talent, the networking skills, whatever. but there are very little protections or stability measures in place for freelance/independent creative workers, and this too is a tricky ground to tread. (not to mention that some creative workers may genuinely WANT to establish themselves at a particular company/record label/agency/whatever!)

if this stuff is interesting to anyone i just finished a book by andrew ross called 'nice work if you can get it' and i highly recommend it for further reading :W:

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Re: Internships & Their Implications for the Creative Indust

Post by test_recordings » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:05 pm

however there is an oft-ignored middle ground, which is jobs that are humanistic, fulfilling and creative, but ones that still are stable and which compensate their employees justly.
Following up how jobs are compensated, the New Economics Foundation publishes studies that go beyond the 'money, and only money' stuff elsewhere. Website: http://www.neweconomics.org/

I remember one particular piece on http://www.OpenDemocracy.org about calculating the social value of jobs with financial ratings beyond the wage itself. The study showed that the more a job benefited society, the less it was rewarded wage-wise (and the inverse, the worse some is for society the more it gets rewarded). For example, hospital cleaners generated ten quid of social value for every one they receive, advertisers created minus twenty, and tax consultants earned the most but created minus forty quid in social value because they worked out how to let people avoid contributing.

Other stuff I've read seems to come to the conclusion that the more enjoyable a job is as well, the less it gets paid, as if not hating your work was some kind of bonus. The same for the more useless a job really is but involves convincing other people to believe bullshit, like marketing: the more misguided bullshit generated, the higher the rewards. It really seems to me that the whole of society is geared to rewarded people to fuck each other over...
Getzatrhythm

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