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http://thayernick.tumblr.com/post/80563 ... ney-i-make

Interesting breakdown of a small time producers numbers, earning and total costs. At some points I think maybe the finances could be managed better, especially for someone earning £800+ per gig, but it's a good read otherwise.

Yeah, he didn't get rich off of the EP, but, ultimately, it's the exposure that allows you to grow your career.

Two words for ya. Long. Haul.

Good article. The fact that you put so much time/effort/soul into making an EP and most of the earnings you ascertain, have to go out to cover all the expenses is surprisingly high.

But at the end of the day if your just making music just for the money aspect, then whats the point. Clearly it will take time to start earning a decent amount the more your exposure increases.

$1000 for artwork? Seriously?

I'd just take a photo of some graffity/abandoned buildings etc, turn it black and white in Photoshop and hey presto.

A nice read and rather refreshing to see someone being so open about their finances, but I can't help but feel he may have been conservative in some areas...

Having said that it's surprising (to me at least) to see those sorts of numbers from someone signed and promoted by OWSLA, I'd always imagined they really pushed/supported/hyped their artists a lot more, meaning more $$$ per set & a lot of social exposure.

Although in this case, Nicks music to me has always just been "okay" (no offence intended, just personal preference), if you compare him to other artists from the same label he has a lot less social exposure in terms of SoundCloud/Twitter followers and if you look at the plays on that EP most of the tracks still (~2 years on) have <30k plays with many hovering around the 10-15k mark. I mean I've seen/follow people with fewer followers (Nick has ~26k) averaging much higher plays per track than that. Actually just as an example of a duo that have "blown up" recently... LetsBeFriends have ~38k followers and their past few uploads are all in the >100k plays territory... different kind of music but still relevant. Although I know plays don't necessarily equal monetary gain, imo it's an important factor to bear in mind.

As for $1000 for that artwork that's surely way overpriced (again my opinion):


It would be interesting to know how his social exposure grew after the release of that EP, as to me that's the flipside, sure you didn't make much money wise but if your online fanbase doubled/tripled within 6 months that's worth the effort.

I don't like the begging at the end - "Buy the EP instead of just one song." No, fuck off. I'll buy the songs I like.

I'm all for supporting artists, but not giving away my money to them like some sort of charity.

Simulant wrote:I don't like the begging at the end - "Buy the EP instead of just one song." No, fuck off. I'll buy the songs I like.

I'm all for supporting artists, but not giving away my money to them like some sort of charity.

I feel what you're saying, but at the same time I feel like not enough people buy albums anymore. If you like a song on the album, buy the album. You never know what else is on there. It's like magic.

zosomagik wrote:

Simulant wrote:I don't like the begging at the end - "Buy the EP instead of just one song." No, fuck off. I'll buy the songs I like.

I'm all for supporting artists, but not giving away my money to them like some sort of charity.

I feel what you're saying, but at the same time I feel like not enough people buy albums anymore. If you like a song on the album, buy the album. You never know what else is on there. It's like magic.

I'd tend to agree, I normally buy albums on CD because I can just whack it on loop in my car, and normally I'll end up liking most if not all of the tracks on the album - tracks I otherwise would have ignored.

loooool what a moron he paid a grand for that artwork, who even really cares about artwork if they are buying it digitally.

does it really cost 200 to master a track?

Tbh i would be fucking chuffed if i basically got paid 800 to go to america for 3 weeks all expenses paid to play music to people. Although i can understand it's not really a feasible way to make a living surely he would of known that when he decided to do this full time though (that's of course if he does do this full time).

I've talked to the guy that does a lot of mastering for OWSLA and he was quoting like 150/track, not 200.

zosomagik wrote:

Simulant wrote:I don't like the begging at the end - "Buy the EP instead of just one song." No, fuck off. I'll buy the songs I like.

I'm all for supporting artists, but not giving away my money to them like some sort of charity.

I feel what you're saying, but at the same time I feel like not enough people buy albums anymore. If you like a song on the album, buy the album. You never know what else is on there. It's like magic.

I'll listen to the album, and buy tracks that I like. One of the best things about the mp3 revolution was that I no longer had to buy an album full of shitty songs just because I liked one or two of them.

zosomagik wrote:

Simulant wrote:I don't like the begging at the end - "Buy the EP instead of just one song." No, fuck off. I'll buy the songs I like.

I'm all for supporting artists, but not giving away my money to them like some sort of charity.

I feel what you're saying, but at the same time I feel like not enough people buy albums anymore. If you like a song on the album, buy the album. You never know what else is on there. It's like magic.

Make an album's worth of tracks worth buying. 90 percent of dance music "albums" just feel like 10 tracks that sound like that artist all put on the same record anyway. Even artist who I like, a lot, are really guilty of this. With dance music I would much rather hear a variety of artists mixed/manipulated by a DJ. It's the layers that count in dance music IMO.

And also, I do know what is on the album. You can usually stream at least a solid sample of each track if not the whole thing in almost all cases. Not getting on your case at all. I just don't really see a reason to buy the whole album on principle from any artist who offers it in that format. If they chose to be on a label that is "forcing" them to sell it in that fashion they either agree with it, look at it as a necessary evil or didn't ask questions before signing.

I'm not a making a mint doing what I do for a living and see no reason to cry over somebody who gets to live out their dream while I'm teaching idiots for peanuts. We could all use more money, welcome to life in a 1st world economy.

All this bullshit being said, I do my best to support the artist, well know and not so known, that I love the most.

rockonin wrote:$1000 for artwork? Seriously?

I'd just take a photo of some graffity/abandoned buildings etc, turn it black and white in Photoshop and hey presto.

I think you forgot a step there.

Re buying. Think EP is pretty nice compromise. Four or five really good songs. Some songs seem to make it onto albums just cause there is space. I mean, for older music, it makes more sense, better chance for open sections, try different neat things. Nowadays for this kind of music we make, I don't know, if you're sucking it, or phoning it in, it shows too much.

Simulant wrote:

zosomagik wrote:

Simulant wrote:I don't like the begging at the end - "Buy the EP instead of just one song." No, fuck off. I'll buy the songs I like.

I'm all for supporting artists, but not giving away my money to them like some sort of charity.

I feel what you're saying, but at the same time I feel like not enough people buy albums anymore. If you like a song on the album, buy the album. You never know what else is on there. It's like magic.

I'll listen to the album, and buy tracks that I like. One of the best things about the mp3 revolution was that I no longer had to buy an album full of shitty songs just because I liked one or two of them.

People like you are why the albums are shit though. People ain't gonna put in the effort to make an album as an album if it gets fucked up by people who won't listen to it properly anyway. Loads of albums I love work mainly as albums. If I took some of the songs and that was it it would ruin it. Also some tracks that don't stand out at first become better with time when hearing them in the middle of an album. How many people are missing all the acoustic tracks on great older albums by rock bands because they don't have the immediate impact now do you reckon?

That's the current industry though isn't it? Is this Nick Thayer guy just naive or attention-seeking?

Such a minuscule percentage of music makers are going to be able to make a career out of it I honestly don't know why so many people put all their eggs in that one basket and then whinge about it all when they realise it's 2014 and making beats is not a viable career for 99.9% of us.
Fair enough go hard at it, make beats in all your free time, follow your dreams, develop your craft and all that, but don't give up your day job. Fucking hell mate. You're probably not Hatcha, you're not Andy C, you're not Mala or Ed Rush or any of those guys. In all probability you're not the next-gen Hatcha or Ed Rush either. In 20 years you and your Beatport chart success will not be relevant and you'll be getting even fewer gigs than you are now, for less money too.

Maybe I am overly cynical but I say if you're currently travelling the world and being paid £30+ per minute to play records to wasted people then big up yourself, that's sick, but make the most of it while it lasts and take it for what it is. Shut the fuck up about "...this EP which probably represented a year of work at actually ended up COSTING me money..." - talk about first world tnuc problems. Be happy some people enjoy your music enough to pay to hear it, be grateful the promoter even bothered to book you (there's no shortage of other stnuc who'll play), take all the free drugs and drinks you're offered, and either accept that the industry is now fucked and work with it, or try and do some next thing.

basically just give thanks and praise.
jah

wolf89 wrote:

Simulant wrote:

zosomagik wrote:

Simulant wrote:I don't like the begging at the end - "Buy the EP instead of just one song." No, fuck off. I'll buy the songs I like.

I'm all for supporting artists, but not giving away my money to them like some sort of charity.

I feel what you're saying, but at the same time I feel like not enough people buy albums anymore. If you like a song on the album, buy the album. You never know what else is on there. It's like magic.

I'll listen to the album, and buy tracks that I like. One of the best things about the mp3 revolution was that I no longer had to buy an album full of shitty songs just because I liked one or two of them.

People like you are why the albums are shit though. People ain't gonna put in the effort to make an album as an album if it gets fucked up by people who won't listen to it properly anyway.

Dude. You're trying to tell me substandard tracks only starting appearing on albums once single song .mp3's were commonly for sale?

That's crazy even by internet forum standards.

I want to consume music however I want to Wolf, you're just going to have to deal with that.

wolf89 wrote:People like you are why the albums are shit though. People ain't gonna put in the effort to make an album as an album if it gets fucked up by people who won't listen to it properly anyway. Loads of albums I love work mainly as albums. If I took some of the songs and that was it it would ruin it. Also some tracks that don't stand out at first become better with time when hearing them in the middle of an album. How many people are missing all the acoustic tracks on great older albums by rock bands because they don't have the immediate impact now do you reckon?

Lol! Yes, I take full responsibility for every single shit tune released in the past few decades. I should be ashamed for making all of those albums shit.

Wolf - could I perhaps have some of the crack you're smoking?

The album consistent quality thing is nothing new, there's maybe 3 albums in the entire world that don't have any filler on them. However I do think the albums have lost their importance and as result the quality has dipped further because of the accessibility and the instant gratification culture sprung up from the MP3 generation. Artists, in dance music especially, now make albums with the knowledge that a majority of their younger listeners are going to skip through and find the songs they like, usually via clips of those songs as well. It removes the music from the context, it removes the ability to create a story and journey through the album. The tracks that exist to give the album space and some down time, get put aside so that what would have been a non album track now has a place on the album bringing the overall quality down.

Personally I think that's a shame. More and more albums seem to be dominated by the desire to have a collection of dancefloor tracks rather than be a concept.

pete bubonic wrote:Artists, in dance music especially, now make albums with the knowledge that a majority of their younger listeners are going to skip through and find the songs they like, usually via clips of those songs as well. It removes the music from the context, it removes the ability to create a story and journey through the album.

What, you old codger?

How do you consume DANCE music? Do you go to a night and have a dj play one album from start to finish, THANKYOU! and he walks off?

If you are a DANCE music dj, do you go hunting for an album, not because it has great songs, but because the whole album arcs and has a theme and your patrons are going to listen to it start to finish?

I think your argument makes more sense outside of the dance context. Albums where, I guess, you're supposed to sit on your couch in the sweetspot and listen to an album for an hour.

I really don't do this. If I have an hour to sit down dedicated to music, I'm going to be making it. I take my music listening where I can get it, when someone has recommended a track, in the car, cleaning my house, background music for dinner. Not a whole lot of places in there for hour long arcing dance concept albums.

I will grant you that there is an art to some albums, producing an experience greater than the individual songs. I, and most others as well, don't really have access to those experiences.

I have to say that I get claustrophobic staying within one producers mind for too long. Like the artistic character of the music gets too homogeneous. I loved it when mp3's came out, it was like a get out of jail free card.

I think this notion of the primacy of concept albums is largely snobbery, and is ugly.

In the words of Popeye, I like what I like, and I listen to it how I like to listen to it.

You have highlighted the key difference between our opinions. Just because the genre is called Dance doesn't mean it has to be solely limited to what works on the dancefloor, Garage isn't for listening to where you park your car and Drum and Bass isn't solely comprised of those two elements. I want my dance music to compliment all my moods and emotions, not just in the rave.

This part will be bias obviously, but Eleven Tigers' album 'Clouds are Mountains' was very close to the perfect 'dance' album. It had a couple of dancefloor tracks in there, but it was album, it had a point, a story and took the listener places. Each song made perfect sense, in context and without the low points, the albums high points wouldn't have been quite so emphatic.

Thank you for dismissing my opinions as snobbery and ugly, though, that certainly has endeared me to your adhd, e-numbered fueled 'rape and pillage' approach to artists creating art....