Dubstepforum.com

Ok, enough of the snarky sarky threads. I suggest anybody looking for serious production questions go elsewhere and find them. The simple fact is NO production techniques are exclusive to Dubstep. Everything that is being done on the technical level has been done before. Wobble, which to the newcomers is THE thing that makes Dubstep 'Dubstep', is a trick borrowed from Elsewhere. Sorry, but that's just how it is. You can learn a shit load more going to every forum for every genre and taking it all in. You just have to learn how to sift through the bullshit.

Learn the tricks, learn the tips, learn the techniques, but don't make the track about them. These little nuggets of knowledge are there to support THE MUSIC. The music isn't the tips and techniques. The music is something beyond that. All the tips and techniques in the world aren't going to help the weak, bland and uninspired noodlings.

So, music production.

What does it really matter? Would you rather make an inspired track that's a bit ropey in the polish dept, or a perfectly polished, yet ultimately forgettable piece of disposable sound entertainment? What are you aiming at? Perfectly polished yawn, or a good tune? What is a good tune? How would you define that?

Why do we see endless threads about compression and levels and making specific sounds that you have heard elsewhere, yet no threads about the actual creation, inspiration and psychology of music? What it means, what it does? How it feels?

Are you into the ART, or simply just the CRAFT?

What is music to you? Is it a bunch of loops where you create the impression of progression in a track by turning them on and off? Can good music be simple? Do things have to be so intricate?

What is the main focus of your tracks? How is your stuff going to be remembered in 2 years time when there's a trillion more people out there jumping on the band wagon and using all the same techniques and sounds as you?

What do you ultimately want with your music? To make a statement? To make a stand? To just be embraced by the scene and told that you're making music that they approve of? Are you making it for you or other people?

What makes a good track? What makes a classic track? Is good the same as classic?

Is a memorable track good? Is there such thing as a good track that you can't remember?

Is a track you can play in 5 years time without being embarrassed considered to be a classic?

Lots of questions?

Ok, what I'm trying to do is simply remind people (especially people new to the whole 'making stuff' thing) that there is more to creation than the tools and techniques that go into it. Too much focus on the craft results in a nice doily to sit your biscuits on while you talk about things other than the doily.

There are some really good heads on this forum and I'm looking forward to all the different answers and approaches, especially if they differ from mine and can convince me that my approach is all wrong.

What a breath of fresh air!

A no-nonsense tell me what you really think subject.

Music in all forms to me is about the emotion it brings out in me. End of.

No amount of endless shit about compression or constant guff about which software is the best can detract from if that tune hits you where it matters.

There's way too much formulaic stuff out there and at the end of the day, if people think your music is good, then you've done the job. Whether they will remember it is up to them and the masses in general.

Music is a craft and an expression which gives people like us the chance to show our creativity. Sharing that and feeding off it helps us all, especially the newcomers.

Personally, I've been into Hardcore, Jungle, D&B, Hip Hop, Soul, Nu Metal, Classical even some pop (for all my sins). All I've found when it comes to production is that ALL genres have had some form of influence on the way I produce.

The crossing over of genres is how electronic music will continue to thrive and mutate. We need to keep this thing going and as two one oh says, there are some really good heads on this forum.

Lets keep it rolling...

two oh one wrote:Ok, enough of the snarky sarky threads. I suggest anybody looking for serious production questions go elsewhere and find them.

So when it says 'DJ and Production Tips' at the top of the forum it's only joking?

Why do we see endless threads about compression and levels and making specific sounds that you have heard elsewhere, yet no threads about the actual creation, inspiration and psychology of music? What it means, what it does? How it feels?

Largely, for me, because I think a lot of people hear can teach me how to use a compressor better or get more out of my synths, but not how to have ideas.

And because the more I learn about this stuff, the faster I can get the sound in my head running on my computer, and the less interference there is between having an idea and making it happen.

Content over gloss every time.

content blud

music is what feelings sound like !

two oh one wrote: What does it really matter? Would you rather make an inspired track that's a bit ropey in the polish dept, or a perfectly polished, yet ultimately forgettable piece of disposable sound entertainment? What are you aiming at? Perfectly polished yawn, or a good tune? What is a good tune? How would you define that?

Another quibble - why the dichotomy? Why can't you produce a tune that has great ideas and sounds great? And how much, in dance music, is compostion / ideas actually different from production anyway? Sure, writing a tune is having an idea, and putting a multiband compressor on your master channel and spending a fortnight tweaking the settings is production, but what about tweaking a synth sound? What about playing around with the timing of your notes to get a rhythmic feel? What about trying to find good atmospherics to create a vibe? People who talk about 'ideas' and 'composition' over 'production' and 'technique' tend to be thinking from the perspective that writing a tune and harmonizing it are Real Composition and everything else is just Technical Wanking, but I don't know how much that applies in dance music.

Slothrop wrote:but I don't know how much that applies in dance music.

Think that's the point - Mr One is effectively asking whether
people are setting out to make music or beats, statements or
or polished club tunes. Not that there's owt wrong with the latter

Cool thread man.

I often ask myself some of those questions, notably: "What exactly are you contributing here?" It gets me down all the time.

I think this forum is full of shit too. Nobody really knows what's right or wrong because there is no right or wrong.

To be remembered would be nice, to have the same impact as, say, Juan Atkins. That would be the dream. A pipe dream, 'cos it won't ever happen.

In the absence of out and out innovation, I do it for myself and those close to me, those who understand the music we love.

Peace.

Forensics wrote:

Slothrop wrote:but I don't know how much that applies in dance music.

Think that's the point - Mr One's effectively asking if anyone out there
sets out to make music rather than beats, or a statement rather than
polished club tunes.

Hmm, maybe I should have said 'electronic music' rather than 'dance music.' Part of what I love about electronic music is the timbres and the sounds, and they can be part of a statement as much as the order of the notes. You get synth sounds so alive and tactile it does your head in listening to a repeated note, or a ride cymbal that puts you on edge just to hear it, or lovely deep warm bass that's a joy in itself, regardless of whether it's being used to play a melodically complex rhythmically varied bassline in counterpoint with the lead sound or just bosh out one note per bar.

I've got no time for immaculately produced but generic music, but we're getting kind of close to that tedious indie kid attitude that says that anything that you can't do on an acoustic guitar and vocals isn't Proper Music but just Production.

psyphon wrote:
Music in all forms to me is about the emotion it brings out in me. End of.

my thoughts exactly. music makes me feel better than anything, i'm not interested in drugs(not anymore) or alcohol, just music & women. even if there not interested in me. The biggest buzz from making music for me is hearing someone else enjoying it. however i'm quite guilty about the way i go about making music and my general approach. hopefully i will 'find myself' in producing and life. (the life side i could fill this entire forum with, probably the biggest distraction on my music making is the bullshit going on ATM).

i find all the talk of scientific shit surrounding producing daunting as fuck but i just think if you want to make music then do it.

“Music and rhythm find their way into the secret places of the soul”

Plato quotes (internet search, i 'm not the most cultured person.)

Slothrop wrote:we're getting kind of close to that tedious indie kid attitude that says that anything that you can't do on an acoustic guitar and vocals isn't Proper Music but just Production.

That's about how I feel mate!! Tedious indie kid? Yep, sounds about right.

well put

but if you deter all the noobs...

who will I throw the hi-res ham at?

Forensics wrote:

Slothrop wrote:we're getting kind of close to that tedious indie kid attitude that says that anything that you can't do on an acoustic guitar and vocals isn't Proper Music but just Production.

That's about how I feel mate!! Tedious indie kid? Yep, sounds about right.

So, for instance, oldskool techno and jungle don't do much for you? People talk a lot about how those tunes have great ideas and fairly rough production (which they do) but if you tried to reproduce Voodoo Ray or No UFOs or Journey to the Light or Ni Ten Ishi Ryu or LFO or Renegade Snares on a Yamaha Portasound keyboard and a Casio Rapman drum machine they'd sound fairly shit...

two oh one wrote: What does it really matter? Would you rather make an inspired track that's a bit ropey in the polish dept, or a perfectly polished, yet ultimately forgettable piece of disposable sound entertainment? What are you aiming at? Perfectly polished yawn, or a good tune? What is a good tune? How would you define that?

I'd rather make something that has inspiration behind it, although those tend to just be disposable anyway, even though they have meaning to me. A good tune is a matter of opinion...don't think it can really be defined because everyone's opinion is different and what's good to one may be considered bad to another. Opinion aside (even though this is an opinion), I would say a good tune is one that makes you want to dance or makes you feel a certain emotion or lets you relate to it somehow. If you can't get any of those things out of a tune, then you'd probably think it's bad.

two oh one wrote: Why do we see endless threads about compression and levels and making specific sounds that you have heard elsewhere, yet no threads about the actual creation, inspiration and psychology of music? What it means, what it does? How it feels?

Because most people want everything handed to them. They don't want to learn or figure things out on their own. They want it right here, right now, for free. Lots of people want to emulate rather than attempt to create something new or different. Those same people don't really care about the deeper meanings of music. They just want to do what is "cool" at the time by emulating other's styles. Not that you can't learn from emulating, but there's a point where you have to develop your own style and production methods.

two oh one wrote: Are you into the ART, or simply just the CRAFT?

I'm into the art and the craft.

two oh one wrote: What is music to you? Is it a bunch of loops where you create the impression of progression in a track by turning them on and off? Can good music be simple? Do things have to be so intricate?

Music to me is anything I can hear, and I mean anything. Doors closing, background noise, keys jingling, water dripping, etc. I'll often hear sounds and my mind processes them into patterns. Not only that, but it's just life as I constantly have beats, noises, and patterns flowing through my head. That's just my daily life. Maybe it's because I grew up with music always around me.

Yes, good music can be simple and the less is more approach typical is good to follow. I mean the first time I heard dubstep I was like...wow...this shit is so minimal but it's so good. Just small switches can keep things dynamic. I don't listen to dubstep other than when my friends are playing and I haven't really heard anything that's all that intricate. The basslines seem to be about as intricate as it gets. Haven't heard too many people chopping up and editing breaks jungle style with the dubstep.

two oh one wrote: What is the main focus of your tracks? How is your stuff going to be remembered in 2 years time when there's a trillion more people out there jumping on the band wagon and using all the same techniques and sounds as you?

Honestly, I almost never have a main focus when working on a track. I'll start a track simply out of boredom and what comes out and develops is whatever happens. Obviously if I'm onto something and feeling a certain part I'll focus more, but it's all usually just random unless there are specific samples I want to use, then the focus revolves around them. I don't know if that's good or bad because I'll probably produce more "throw-away" tracks than ones I consider to be "good", but each one is a learning process and just for fun anyway. I don't care if my stuff is remembered in 2 years or not. Not trying to impress anyone, just having fun.

two oh one wrote: What do you ultimately want with your music? To make a statement? To make a stand? To just be embraced by the scene and told that you're making music that they approve of? Are you making it for you or other people?

I could care less if people appreciate/approve my music or not. I'm not making it for anyone other than myself. It's just my way of passing time and expressing myself, also I see it as a way of documenting history and my life. Samples I use are usually from things that have influenced or have some meaning to me. Ultimately I just want it as something to look back on...maybe something to pass onto my kids if I ever have any. It would also be nice if my music somehow influenced others to make music.

two oh one wrote: What makes a good track? What makes a classic track? Is good the same as classic?

Answered the good track part already. No I don't think good is the same as classic. Classic is definitely something memorable...something that takes you back...something that's been rinsed to the max, which usually tends to make it not as "good".

two oh one wrote: Is a memorable track good? Is there such thing as a good track that you can't remember?

Kind of goes with my above answer. Memorable tracks that get rinsed too much tend to make you not want to hear them anymore or they tend to lose their impact and feeling. However, bring them back 5-10 years later when nobody else is playing them anymore, or they've been slightly forgotten due to other new shit getting pushed out, and they'll have the same feeling and impact as they did when they first came out....that's what makes a track a classic.

Yes, there are plenty of tracks that I would consider good that I can't remember. Many obscure labels out there that were pushing some banging ass tracks that are very difficult to get a hold of today, which makes me wish I lived in the U.K.

two oh one wrote: Is a track you can play in 5 years time without being embarrassed considered to be a classic?

Possibly, but it all depends on the track. Classic to me isn't just anything that's old. Classics to me are good tracks that were done ahead of their time. Stuff that makes you think....damn....this shit is harder than anything i've heard before and it was produced over 10 years ago.

i love the fact i can minipulate sound. to me it aint about all the technichal stuff. like i dont know the names of the techneques i use, i jus play around with every nob(No homo) until it sounds like id like it to, whats the point in a perfectly leveled beat if it hasn't got a vibes.

i defenatly love seeing people bruk out to my music, when i started it was the reason i made it, for other people, but then again it was for me beacase this made me feel good get me.

making sound how i like it to sound is quikly taking over my life trus, i cant imagine not makin music, yet ive only been on to producing stuf 4 about a yr now, i have been into music scence i was 12 (when i got a pair of decks and a mic n recorded grime sets with my mates). ive come a long way scence then, my mind set on the whole thing has changed from "yeah i can do sumthin most people cant" to "i love this shit, what shud i do next?" im findin it kinda hard to explain what my heads sayin, im slightly ditsletsic but u shud kinda get were im cumming from.

relik wrote:Music to me is anything I can hear, and I mean anything. Doors closing, background noise, keys jingling, water dripping, etc. I'll often hear sounds and my mind processes them into patterns. Not only that, but it's just life as I constantly have beats, noises, and patterns flowing through my head.

i think the very same thing myself.

ultimately i want to earn a living through sound controll/manipulation/creation, were ever you want to call it. i dont want to be famous or nething... would love to make computer game music mabie, but im stil young and dont know everything thats out there, but im startin a music tech coarse next year, and wereva that takes me im happy to go.

big up on this thred.

two oh one wrote:Would you rather make an inspired track that's a bit ropey in the polish dept, or a perfectly polished, yet ultimately forgettable piece of disposable sound entertainment? What are you aiming at? Perfectly polished yawn, or a good tune?

On here, I'd rather make sound entertainment. I'm enormously shy about sharing my own stuff online, because I would hate it if I posted a tune and people went "Nice tune, but you need to compress the snare a bit..." or whatever. It's like getting dressed up for a hot date and leaving the house without realising you've got your jacket tucked into your underpants.

Back in real life, I get that it doesn't matter how a good tune sounds. The Beatles spent months in Abbey Road, but their songs still sound great bashed out on an acoustic guitar at 5am when you're off your face. Just about every punk band went into a studio, bashing through a few tracks, ran it to tape straight from the mixer and made classic records. Electronic artists I love like MF Doom, early Hive, early Aphex Twin, they all sound like their stuff comes straight out of the sampler, it's so raw and perfect.

What is a good tune? How would you define that?

It's memorable. And that's pretty much it. Music covers such a wide range of everything, I wouldn't want to limit it by enforcing a tighter definition. A good tune sticks in your head, for whatever reason.

Why do we see endless threads about compression and levels and making specific sounds that you have heard elsewhere, yet no threads about the actual creation, inspiration and psychology of music? What it means, what it does? How it feels?

I don't know, but I wish it was that way. When I got into dubstep, and made my way here, that's what I was expecting. The dubstep I was listening to; Vex'd, Distance, Kode9, Burial, Joker, Cluekid, it all had that kind of rawness from the first post. And it had musical merit as well, it wasn't just chromatic synth chops and tight beats like the dnb I was listening to, it was fluid, it had shape, it moved, more than any other electronic genre I'd heard. It was experimental, yet it was dancable. It gave me faith that kids in their bedrooms could make interesting music. And if they were making interesting music, they would be making interesting forum posts.

But things have got kind of stale recently, and the same questions are getting asked, and the same piss is being taken, and you all know how it is. But it shouldn't be, like the first post said, everything that's being asked can be answered by either Google searching or by taking an hour or two, even a day, and figuring it out for yourself. I'm only too happy to help n00bs, we were all n00bs once. I even answer "how do I do this?" or "here, listen to this and tell me what you think" PMs from strangers on here. I've got a wealth of technical knowledge in my head (being modest) and I'm only too happy to share it.

But I'm not getting what I need in return. (continues...)

Are you into the ART, or simply just the CRAFT?

Musical knowledge is my greatest weakness. Not necessarily theory, because that's just formulas and learning, and I can do that, but actually expressing oneself through those formulas and patterns. I've been through girlfriend after girlfriend who says I'm not in touch with my emotions, and they're so right. Everything I make sounds either happy-clappy, like happy hardcore or jump-up, or really sad and depressing, but in a really bland way. And I cannot manage other emotions in my music, I cannot do menacing, or soulful, or how you feel while you're getting dressed to go out, or any other emotion I want my music to convey. And that's what I need help with from a forum like this, that's what got me here in the first place.
To answer the question, it is all about the craft for me, but I'm trying real hard to make it about the art.

What is music to you? Is it a bunch of loops where you create the impression of progression in a track by turning them on and off? Can good music be simple? Do things have to be so intricate?

Yes good music can be that simple. One of my very favourite tracks is Vletrmx21 by Autechre, which is just a simple synthesized string progression, repeated over a 7 minute track. Repetition is just as important as variation. I love tracks which build on repeating themes, but there is a fine line between repetition and monotony, which is something else I struggle with.

What is the main focus of your tracks? How is your stuff going to be remembered in 2 years time when there's a trillion more people out there jumping on the band wagon and using all the same techniques and sounds as you?

Yeah I can't really answer this yet. I'm not a stage in my musical ability or confidence where I could define My Sound.

What do you ultimately want with your music? To make a statement? To make a stand? To just be embraced by the scene and told that you're making music that they approve of? Are you making it for you or other people?

Definitely to make a stand. To be an outsider and to push boundaries. To challenge. Everyone wants acceptance to a certain point, but I'd be satisied with a tiny cult following, or with someone copying my sound 20 years after I fade out and becoming a superstar. I don't want fame on any level. It corrupts people, it makes them part of this ridiculous machine. I do want acceptance, and respect as opposed to ridicule, but for who I am, not for being devoted to any particular scene. I want to be Four Tet, not Andy C.

What makes a good track? What makes a classic track? Is good the same as classic?

Good is absolutely not the same as classic. Energy 52 made a decent chillout tune called 'Cafe Del Mar', named after a venue in Ibiza where you can see the sunset on the beach as your E's are kicking in. It obviously gets played out in Ibiza that summer, and everyone brings the record home, and now it reminds the old ravers of the good ol' days, and shows up on just about every summer dance compilation. It is the definition of a classic track, it captured the zeitgeist of that particular scene, at just the right moment. I, on the other hand, wasn't there, never have been, I don't know what a Cafe Del Mar sunset looks like. I don't even really like the fucking song. Good is not the same as classic.

Is a memorable track good? Is there such thing as a good track that you can't remember?

Yeah definitely. 'Memorable' is a long-term thing. When I visited my mum's ages ago and dug this box out of the attic, full of CDs I forgot I even owned, I got so fucking excited. You never forget good music, even though you're not whistling it day after day, it sticks with you for your whole life... (continues)

Is a track you can play in 5 years time without being embarrassed considered to be a classic?

As I get older, I realise that 5 years is a really short time. If I was still playing a track from 10 years ago, when I was in my mid-teens, without embarrassment, then I would call it a classic.

Lots of questions?

Lots of really good questions. I had a really good time answering this, even if it did turn out to be a bit of a War and Peace for the rest of you. I have something of a manifesto now, I can see clearly what I need to focus on, going forward. Big ups 2oh1.

how do i make a good tune though?




sorry, will reply with a serious answer some time, great thread.

i pretty much agree with everything two oh one said, and he knows that. as far as this forum being shit - i wouldnt know, i barely check it out. I pretty much try to do my own thing, and i am constantly struggling with whether my music is decent to me.

I got some random PM the other day from someone that said they really liked my stuff, and that it should be on vinyl. made my week. I wonder what im doing with my life - and i keep making music. i dont just make music, i throw money at it as if it's an investment. I wonder if i'm wrong. i wonder if im going to be a failure every day. every time i sit down at the sequencer, or synth, or keyboard or whatever.

I wonder how these sounds and melodies come out of me. Where do they come from? why cant i go there every day?

I'll keep making music probably. I'll keep fighting the fight. I'll keep digging. For me, it's art. i dont ever pretend to know what im doing here.

two oh one wrote:Ok, enough of the snarky sarky threads. I suggest anybody looking for serious production questions go elsewhere and find them. The simple fact is NO production techniques are exclusive to Dubstep. Everything that is being done on the technical level has been done before. Wobble, which to the newcomers is THE thing that makes Dubstep 'Dubstep', is a trick borrowed from Elsewhere. Sorry, but that's just how it is. You can learn a shit load more going to every forum for every genre and taking it all in. You just have to learn how to sift through the bullshit.

Learn the tricks, learn the tips, learn the techniques, but don't make the track about them. These little nuggets of knowledge are there to support THE MUSIC. The music isn't the tips and techniques. The music is something beyond that. All the tips and techniques in the world aren't going to help the weak, bland and uninspired noodlings.

So, music production.

What does it really matter? Would you rather make an inspired track that's a bit ropey in the polish dept, or a perfectly polished, yet ultimately forgettable piece of disposable sound entertainment? What are you aiming at? Perfectly polished yawn, or a good tune? What is a good tune? How would you define that?

Why do we see endless threads about compression and levels and making specific sounds that you have heard elsewhere, yet no threads about the actual creation, inspiration and psychology of music? What it means, what it does? How it feels?

Are you into the ART, or simply just the CRAFT?

What is music to you? Is it a bunch of loops where you create the impression of progression in a track by turning them on and off? Can good music be simple? Do things have to be so intricate?

What is the main focus of your tracks? How is your stuff going to be remembered in 2 years time when there's a trillion more people out there jumping on the band wagon and using all the same techniques and sounds as you?

What do you ultimately want with your music? To make a statement? To make a stand? To just be embraced by the scene and told that you're making music that they approve of? Are you making it for you or other people?

What makes a good track? What makes a classic track? Is good the same as classic?

Is a memorable track good? Is there such thing as a good track that you can't remember?

Is a track you can play in 5 years time without being embarrassed considered to be a classic?

Lots of questions?

Ok, what I'm trying to do is simply remind people (especially people new to the whole 'making stuff' thing) that there is more to creation than the tools and techniques that go into it. Too much focus on the craft results in a nice doily to sit your biscuits on while you talk about things other than the doily.

There are some really good heads on this forum and I'm looking forward to all the different answers and approaches, especially if they differ from mine and can convince me that my approach is all wrong.

this is the first post that actually made me turn off firefox and go work on my tunes...

deep thoughts, mate...

i make music because i want to and because i enjoy it.

i would answer more questions but i aint got the time at the moment