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Im getting to the point now of a basic understanding of me production programs, and finally its not the only limiting factor on what I can make. However, I guess that now means its high time to start picking up a few things about song structure, momentum creation and other such things.

I dont think im too bad with these things at the moment though. I have absoloutely no pattern by which I create tracks, I just listen back to them time and time again, until nothing stands out at me as something I want to change. Most my tracks do just seem to build and build though...

So yeah, thats where my problem is. I can at least make an attempt at building a track up a bit, then maybe a slight decrease in overall clutter, giving the track a bit more breathing space before the switch up around a drop. But yeah, I can't seem to make things drop! I think its a general lack of knowledge about percussion/rhythm, combined with not even knowing where to start with whatever percussion sounds would work best (I know there is of course no "cookbook" approach to beat making...at least there shouldnt be. But I still can't grasp what it is about a loops structure that makes it "hard hitting")

For an example, heres something I was playing about with today:

http://www.divshare.com/download/5587846-bc2
(obviously not finished...not by a long shot)

The track itself, I guess I was going for the slight detroit (or what I understand by detroit!) dischordant chord patterns and a bumping, rolling, techy beat. But yeah, its that bumping/rolling energy I just can't seem to create!

Any tips from "Dont be a twat" to "Read this 4000 page introduction to basic percussive theory" would be graaaaatefully recieved!
Oh, and any feedback on the tune itself is always appreciated too!

Cheers!

Hey man.

Ask the boys on sub-bass about this. They might be able to help.

www.sub-bassmusic.com

Hmm I might go and have a browse there at least. Theres always archived knowledge floating around!

As for the tune I was doing, here is how its "turned out" so to speak. Could very well be a prime example of me not being able to create much of a tension/release...

http://www.divshare.com/download/5593846-c1a

I would love someone to have a listen and let me know what they reckon. Id love to hear what someone else would do differently with the basic idea of the tune.

that main melodic thing that starts from the beginning is just way to constant for way too long... i would bring in some other sort of synth pad, dub chord type things early on.... that has a complimentary or counterpointal rhythm...

use different amounts of the new part and melody, (along with sort of like fills or variations at the end of the phrases), to help build some tension

i would also have the different sections switch between different keys, or just different chord progressions and basslines to help it progress more....
make each section feel like that... you are entering a new section, dont just add new percussion every 16 or 32 bars... its hard to be specific, but different sounds and key transpositions and different chords would help a bit...

dont get too crazy with the number or sections though, have 2 or 3 main "sections" (different chord progressions) and play with rhythms to make each occurance of each section unique and moving forward

that nyeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr wind up thing innit

without going into structures n that, i guess a simple thing would be a filter, ie just the lowish freqs, and slowly opening up more of the high frequencies would be one to try ...

dunno how coherent i am

Nah I get you Are Might have a bit of a play with that.

And cheers NoSpin thats some fucking cracking feedback. I hadn't really noticed how repetitive the main melody was, id been listening to it over and over anyway so I was pretty tired of it already

Im definitely going to have a play with some chord variations and things, dont know why I didnt think of doing it to be honest. I think its cos it took me a while to work out the actual chords I wanted in the firstplace. Definitely got to think more about fills and the like too. I do occasionaly use them when it just kind of feels right, but Ive never actively thought about putting them in.

Shall report back with progression!

try using filters to build up and bring down the pressure

a simple LP/HP filter with a diagonal curve building up/dropping down is surprisingly effective and simple.

this has worked for me in the past:

intro for about 24 bars and then break down the drums or filer them yadda yadda

use a filter sweep to build back up into the tune with a kick at increasing intervals 1/8 to 1/16 to 1/32 etc....

then those drums should build up into your tune right before bar 33

right at the drop you can put a decending booom bass (a bass that sounds like it's falling down a tunnel)

this is a pretty generic formula but you can find new ways to flip it and make it your own

good luck sir wiggles and keep us posted on the progress

I wonder who made this 1/8, 1/16, 1/256 build style first.

I want to know because I want to strangle him.

Now seriously, who? I think of some Dj Zinc track.

FSTZ wrote:this has worked for me in the past:

intro for about 24 bars and then break down the drums or filer them yadda yadda

use a filter sweep to build back up into the tune with a kick at increasing intervals 1/8 to 1/16 to 1/32 etc....

then those drums should build up into your tune right before bar 33

right at the drop you can put a decending booom bass (a bass that sounds like it's falling down a tunnel)

this is a pretty generic formula but you can find new ways to flip it and make it your own

good luck sir wiggles and keep us posted on the progress

it works

and I never do just that, like I said you can make awsome variations of it

it's just a technique

and not the only one as well

and it dates back to early chicago house from the late 80's early 90's

(I was there)

Yes, yes, I know, you made it clear about it being generic.

I didn't remember anything from that era that used this trick... but it makes sense.

try leaving the sub out til all the drums come together in a rhythmic pattern, then drop it in. Bring elements of the track in over a period of either 16 or 32 bars, then pull them out again or break them down with some nice fills. try introducing different percussive elements and samples into your fills before taking them out again when the main beat comes back in (Runway is a great track for doing this king of thing). Build up filter sweeps over your pads and try pitch bending a synth upwards an octave to give the feeling of a build of energy.
Use vocal samples with plenty of reverb /delay to give the feeling of space and time. High pass out any low subby bass in your build up as well so the weight of the sub is really felt when the bass drops properly.
Theres lots of ways to do this!

tbh i really like the deep techyness of this track. the pads are a bit repetitive, like drop them out at some point. but i dont think you need a big drop. not if thats the kind of music you arent aiming for.

really really feelin the beat that comes in afeter 1;20 or so.

the melody doesnet need to change much, but the bass sounds should.

and the melody has to be the perfect volumn.

reallly really want a workin copy of that track to play tho man

place a few odd hard kicks in there very syncopated like.

samkablaam wrote:tbh honest i really like the deep techyness of this track. the pads are a bit repetitive, like drop them out at some point. but i dont think you need a big drop. not if thats the kind of music you arent aiming for.

I was thinking the same thing and did not get around to saying it. This one is not asking for a drop.

Blip wrote:

samkablaam wrote:tbh honest i really like the deep techyness of this track. the pads are a bit repetitive, like drop them out at some point. but i dont think you need a big drop. not if thats the kind of music you arent aiming for.

I was thinking the same thing and did not get around to saying it. This one is not asking for a drop.

Yeah definitely agree with that. And I spose drop might have been the wrong word for this (although, as it happens I can't make stuff that I DO want to drop do it anyway...so cheers for all the tips for the future! ) however, I do want to try and create some building up and release of tension throughout. Something like Martyns Broken heart remix is a prime example of the sort of thing im going for. When the bass comes in (what I spose you could call the drop) is madness. With very little happening before and after the drop, and nothing emphasising it as a drop, it still manages to generate an anticipation of itself and a huge release when it does happen. Im sure this is where the immense skill and musical talent comes into play on his behalf, but if its the kind of thing I want to try and achieve...never say die I say!

Im having real troubles with this track now actually, Ive come up with a few variations on the track that im very happy with, but im struggling to find ways to progress between them. Still, onwards and upwards!

Massive thanks again for feedback in this thread btw y'all, some wicked advice and the like. Appreciated!

Thinking about dropping and not dropping, I made a ridiculously simple soft-drop in this tune here and i think it works. In a way it fits your stuff in the sense that it's not a "THROW YOUR HANDS IN THE AAIIIIERRRRR" drop.

It's on about 1 min. here.
http://soundcloud.com/djblip/cansanmah

best advice, listen to other tunes you like. mimik those drops, at least till you get a formula(s)...

Something I've been finding quite effective recently is writing the climax (normally the second drop in some sense) first. Or rather, working up the usual 8 / 16 / 32 bar loop that grooves nicely and a few variations / alternative parts that can be used as well, and then deciding what is the combination of parts that gives me as much energy as possible and using that for the second drop. Then work backwards from there, more or less. Have some stuff with less of the drums and bass in a breakdown section, then have a first main section that is a bit like the second drop but slightly toned down and with some different stuff thrown in. Tweak things, vary things, intro, outro and bob's your uncle.

That doesn't sound particularly revolutionary now I look back at it, but for ages I'd been working forwards through the tune and trying to add more stuff on to build things up. In particular I'd often end up writing in a load of dodgy extra percussion parts to layer over the top of something to make it really energetic when the tune peaks, despite the fact that the basic drums and bass were pretty lethargic. It felt a bit like flogging a tired horse to make it go or something. Thinking back, I should probably have realised that the tune was never going to go absolutely tearout at the end, and focussed on making earlier parts that were more relaxed so the climax was still a climax relative to the rest of the tune.

Oh yeah, the other thing I'm realising is that the basic energy of the tune comes from the core percussion parts and the bass. If you've got a really lumpen bass / percussion thing going on then layering a shitload of bouncy congas and cowbells and whooshes and woo yeahs over the top just makes it sound excessively busy but still not actually groove. At least, that's my experience.