Really need help (Royalties)

ketamine · Post by **ketamine** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:14 pm

I'm producing a tune for a friend (who is also a successful local R&B artist, signed to a semi-big independent label). He is (unbeknown to them) talking an EP deal with a major label and if they fancy the album, will sign him to a major distribution package.

My problem: Should I just take a few dollars now, from him, and gurantee that I have gotten paid--what my gut feeling says--or should I take nothing, get production credit and see if his cash cow comes in. I have a feeling, even if the label winds up signing him, he's not going to get in contact with me (even though we only live 10 mins apart) but rather tell me a bunch of promises in the coming months about how he "will after he gets his royalties" but never will.

We're life long friends. I could be acting needlessly paranoid, but I also know him, and feel I'm gambling either way. Only thing is a very small amount now, or a large amount later with no guarantee of getting it.

jolly wailer · Post by **jolly wailer** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:19 pm

Plus valet in manibus avis unica quam dupla silvis.

“A bird in the hand is worth more than two in the woods.”

ketamine · Post by **ketamine** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:23 pm

That phrase has been going through my mind all day. Probably will take my one little bird

Really going to be pissed if he blows up and gets rich though...

Sharmaji · Post by **Sharmaji** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:24 pm

welcome to negotiations.

in general in situations like this, you charge a fee up front and then an agreed-upon split of royalites afterwards.

jolly wailer · Post by **jolly wailer** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:25 pm

“a bird in the hand is good, but a bird in the bush might sing.”

futures_untold · Post by **futures_untold** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:36 pm

I would negotiate a price between you now on work that is currently in progress.

If he makes it big, you will hopefully be in his good book as someone he can trust and as someone who he has a good working relationship with. Unless he ditches all his friends and family, he will take you with him, keep using you for projects and pay you all the more for it anyway!

I have been spending all day reading about the state of the music and media industries for a business venture I am working on. Trust me, the big label route is like trying to hit bullseye from 500 meters out.

It may even be worth dropping the wholemusic thing together as it sounds like it is putting strain on an otherwise decent relationship. Unless you get things legally agreed in writing, assume that your 'gentlemans agreemen't will be broken.

The music industry is harsh, and peoples tastes change rapidly. Just build on what is in front of you now and you will both be better off for it! Establishing a mutually beneficial working relationship with him now will reap dividends later if he makes it big.

ketamine · Post by **ketamine** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:41 pm

So basically I'm f

ed. ROTFLOL

I'm taking my money now. Cheers all.

Genevieve · Post by **Genevieve** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:50 pm

Why not take TeReKeTe's route?

John Locke · Post by **John Locke** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:59 pm

TeReKeTe wrote: you charge a fee up front and then an agreed-upon split of royalites afterwards.

why do u persist in just considering the either/or scenario?

cheap deal in cash now, plus a modest cut of future profits. IN WRITING.

he aint famous yet, so the reduced rate now will no doubt appeal. and paying a little percentage later aint gonna hurt him too much him if he makes it big time anyway. wont feel a thing

futures_untold · Post by **futures_untold** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:00 pm

Genevieve wrote:Why not take TeReKeTe's route?

Which is.......???

(Become producer ---> Mastering Engineer ---> Forum moderator ---> head of big secret shadowy global corporation/cult???)

Sharmaji · Post by **Sharmaji** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:38 pm

futures_untold wrote:
Genevieve wrote:Why not take TeReKeTe's route?
Which is.......???

(Become producer ---> Mastering Engineer ---> Forum moderator ---> head of big secret shadowy global corporation/cult???)

you left out somali pirate, but i ain't mad at'cha for it.

ketamine · Post by **ketamine** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:49 pm

Battle Gong wrote:
TeReKeTe wrote: you charge a fee up front and then an agreed-upon split of royalites afterwards.
why do u persist in just considering the either/or scenario?

Because this is the kind of person he is. Its not me being "either /or", its him. Its cool though, if it does signed it'll be a major production credit for me.

futures_untold · Post by **futures_untold** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:00 pm

TeReKeTe wrote:
futures_untold wrote:
Genevieve wrote:Why not take TeReKeTe's route?
Which is.......???

(Become producer ---> Mastering Engineer ---> Forum moderator ---> head of big secret shadowy global corporation/cult???)
you left out somali pirate, but i ain't mad at'cha for it.

Oops! My bad...

That was before you became a music prodsucer, wasn't it?

blunt-dmo · Post by **blunt-dmo** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:01 pm

Ketamine wrote:
Battle Gong wrote:
TeReKeTe wrote: you charge a fee up front and then an agreed-upon split of royalites afterwards.
why do u persist in just considering the either/or scenario?

Because this is the kind of person he is. Its not me being "either /or", its him. Its cool though, if it does signed it'll be a major production credit for me.

if thats the case i wouldnt even work on it
if he was a "friend" he would be fair, those are not fair options and not something that imo is workable
its obviously good enough for him to like it there for he should pay a reasonable price for it and give you a small cut in royalties included

either that or you could be a complete arse and sell it to him without signing anything proofed by a lawyer and then register the instrumental with the MCPS/PRS

scooterjack · Post by **scooterjack** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:17 pm

Ketamine wrote: Because this is the kind of person he is. Its not me being "either /or", its him. Its cool though, if it does signed it'll be a major production credit for me.

honestly..... i'd tell him to fuck off if he won't come off a couple points on the back end... that's SHADY and pretty fucking low

hackman · Post by **hackman** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:12 pm

nothing against your production skills, i could be wrong, but being a "major" label unless its really special i'd of thought they'd do their own production for that tune anyway
so take a fee now?

deadly_habit · Post by **deadly_habit** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:24 pm

keep the friendship part separate from the business end
http://law.freeadvice.com/intellectual_ ... music_law/
and get a contract drawn up that is beneficial to both parties, but cover your own ass

collective · Post by **collective** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:53 pm

contracts ftw.

Sharmaji · Post by **Sharmaji** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:56 pm

hackman wrote:nothing against your production skills, i could be wrong, but being a "major" label unless its really special i'd of thought they'd do their own production for that tune anyway
so take a fee now?

major's don't do production any more, not in the slightest. Aside from something like dap-tone (which is full-on indie, though they've done some WICKED productions for majors), there's no such thing as a house band or house producer for major labels.... though there are plenty of consistent relationships.

More often than not an artist, publisher, production house or label will buy a song from a writer to use for an artist or multiple artists. The standard way right now is that the writer gets x amount of their fee up front, and then whatever is agreed upon on the back end; often, that's 50% of the writer's royalties and none of the publishers (the label keeps that).

the majors are so f'd right now, though, that i know a few people who are settling for 1/2 of their fee up front, another 1/2 when the record is released (which as we all know is NOT guaranteed), and then whatever backend comes.

so in this day and age--- get as much as you can up front, as there's no guarantee of any sort of back end. If it's a friendship thing and you want to cut deals, golden, do so. but if this is something w/ the potential muscle of a major's promotion and liscening departments behind it, you should be paid for what your work is worth.

This is very much the business side of the business... you've got to weigh some things (getting your foot in the door for next to no $ vs. getting paid but shut out of the loop), and pick your battles-- and then BATTLE, should it be the time.

author · Post by **author** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:57 pm

take money now. take money now. take money now.

Though I would also make sure that you get credited on the product regardless of whatever agreement you come to. That'd be more important to me than the money.

You could also do something whereby you only begin to receive royalties after he's got rid of a number (200,000?) units, this'd protects you in the event that he goes all Akon on your ass. Though both of you are going to be raped for a good long while. After the 1st album goes platinum then you can probably renegotiate (if you're lucky).

Very sneaky but what blunt dmo said would also be good:
'sell it to him without signing anything proofed by a lawyer and then register the instrumental with the MCPS/PRS'
http://www.prsformusic.com

Really need help (Royalties)

Really need help (Royalties)

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